Author Topic: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST  (Read 4533 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2022, 05:11:06 PM »
The main problem with this attachment is the wood can't move with changes in humidity.  I suspect it has caused a lot of forestock damage over the past few centuries, especially with longer barrels. I have seen this feature on germanic rifles as well. Which is where the practice certainly originated.

Plus a devil of a time removing the barrel! (Joke)
Perhaps it’s better suited to shorter barrels. I see a majority of full stock guns with splits in the forestock, even with pinned barrels. I don’t see slotted lugs on originals. I’m guessing they were mostly concerned about the first 40 years of a gun’s use.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2022, 05:30:03 PM »
The main problem with this attachment is the wood can't move with changes in humidity.  I suspect it has caused a lot of forestock damage over the past few centuries, especially with longer barrels. I have seen this feature on germanic rifles as well. Which is where the practice certainly originated.

Plus a devil of a time removing the barrel! (Joke)
Perhaps it’s better suited to shorter barrels. I see a majority of full stock guns with splits in the forestock, even with pinned barrels. I don’t see slotted lugs on originals. I’m guessing they were mostly concerned about the first 40 years of a gun’s use.
I have always found it odd they didn't slot their lugs back in the day. I find pins that are severely bent on contemporary guns if the lugs aren't slotted.
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Offline WESTbury

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2022, 05:58:47 PM »
The main problem with this attachment is the wood can't move with changes in humidity.  I suspect it has caused a lot of forestock damage over the past few centuries, especially with longer barrels. I have seen this feature on germanic rifles as well. Which is where the practice certainly originated.

These are great observations Mike, appreciate them.

The 47" long barrel being fixed at both ends by screws certainly does not leave much wiggle room.

The forestock of the rifle I have has repaired damage as you outlined above. Sketch attached and one photo.

 



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Offline WESTbury

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2022, 07:00:02 PM »
As an aside, RCA #72 by "J Graeff" has a nose cap retained to the barrel by a screw. This particular rifle is in the NRA Museum.

https://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-prospering-new-republic/case-28-romance-of-the-long-rifle/j-graeff-flintlock-rifle.aspx

Shumway did not note this fact but George Moller did on Page 30 of his American Military Shoulder Arms, Vol. 2.

I guess at least one of the Graeff brothers liked this method or this was what he was taught in his apprenticeship. Unfortunately, at least as far as I know, we do not know with whom either brother apprenticed.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2023, 03:21:57 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2022, 08:19:48 PM »
The NRA Graeff rifle was in the Leonard collection when I saw it. It was for sale, but it appeared to be somewhat primitive and so I passed it by. Apparently I was still young and stupid; glad it found a good home. Harm Leonard gave several rifles to the NRA if not mistaken. This one has all the earmarks of a really early piece. Thank you for bringing it up Kent. Much appreciated.
Dick

Offline HIB

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2022, 08:06:43 AM »
Gentlemen,   
Re:   Brass nose cap with attachment to barrel with screw.  I recently had the opportunity to inspect two early Reading rifles with the screw  and nose cap feature.  At the time, I was more interested in whether the nose cap was cast or swaged.  Fortunately, I had two well known builders and/or restorers with me when we made the inspection.  The overall opinion was that both nose caps were cast. That by itself is important, but it led to the inspection of the patch box cover and side rails.  They too were determined to be cast as was the butt plate and side plate along with the trigger guard. The latter three having been decided long ago. What turned out to be new, to me, was the casting of the nose cap and patch box assembly. It will be interesting if the new owner of the RI auction gun will make the same observation.  The two guns we inspected are in the RCA Vol. I and near in sequence to the auction gun.

I won't be shy with my opinion here, but I believe there were brass foundries operating in Reading and servicing gunsmiths and other early industries prior to what we have always thought.   There is too much consistency in Reading style 'spoon tailed trigger guards' and beveled side plates to miss an opportunity to delve into the possibility.

I respect all the opinions put forward above.  Myself and Bruce Moyer have been studying the guns attributed to Reading for over 35 years.  Others have joined the effort to at least identify four basic periods of gun making in the Boro of Reading and surrounding area.  It starts in 1750 with Baroque and heavily carved 'C' scrolls or volutes [Shumway did a good job here].  After 1765 the stock architecture seems to stay the same but the carving appears to evolve into the pre Rev War era, more refined, but not distinct; hasn't reached its own yet, except 'spoon tailed trigger guard'.  I am not sure what happened during the Rev War but I do know when gunsmiths were doing their best after the war to market their wares, the era I referred to as ' Vines, Leaves and fruit' emerged.  When the Great comet of 1811-12 became the community talking point the majority of guns produced in and around Reading carried a 'comet' inlay. A Reading style gun dated 1812 is a fine example.

I am open to discussion.  Actually, I need 12 more examples of guns attributed to Reading to complete the study. Probably 24 more would be more appropriate. Currently, I have photosets of each gun I mention in the four categories.

With respect,   HIB 

Offline WESTbury

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2022, 02:36:48 PM »
Gentlemen,   
Re:   Brass nose cap with attachment to barrel with screw.  I recently had the opportunity to inspect two early Reading rifles with the screw  and nose cap feature.
With respect,   HIB

Henry,

Curious as to whether the screws were in tapped holes that were in the barrel or into lugs fitted to the bottom flat. It is a small point and was probably at the discretion of the stocker, but I'm interested in knowing.

Kent 
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2022, 02:46:28 PM »
Over t h e past few years I have been quite surprised by the number of patchboxes that are cast.  Many of the Moravian guns, Leigh's, some North Carolina and many of the Lexington area guns. Also there is a early Virginia gun in the JHAT series with a cast box. I have never paid much attention to nose caps , assuming they were all sheet.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline HIB

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2022, 05:03:17 AM »
Kent,
Re:     Cast Brass nose cap fasten to barrel with screw.

Both examples inspected have an iron lug on the bottom flat of muzzle.   The screw holds cast brass nose cap tightly to the stock
and barrel surround via the iron lug and screw.       HIB

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2022, 03:24:42 PM »
Kent,
Re:     Cast Brass nose cap fasten to barrel with screw.

Both examples inspected have an iron lug on the bottom flat of muzzle.   The screw holds cast brass nose cap tightly to the stock
and barrel surround via the iron lug and screw.       HIB
This is what I have seen on the German guns I have taken apart.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline backsplash75

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Re: RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2022, 01:57:50 AM »
(Written while Eric was responding above)
The screw holding the nosecap in place is a rare feature associated with guns often commonly believed stocked pre-1770-ish. The Musician’s rifle, RCA 21, the Marshall rifle, the tulip rifle, and the Natty Bumpo rifle come to my mind. I forget if the Deschler rifle and RCA 42 share this feature. Please correct me where I’m mistaken.

Since none of these have a date (except one scratched on the patchbox of the Musician’s rifle), assigning a “must be before” date is impossible.

Features like this are also sporadic. In other words, found on a small subset of guns believed to have been made around the same time.


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