RCA #21 RIFLE AT ROCK ISLAND IN AUGUST

[WESTbury]

Save your nickles and dimes kids. Hachen rides again!
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/86/3072/early-flintlock-smoothbore-american-long-rifle

Reading marked rifle.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/86/3074/flintlock-american-long-rifle-with-reading-inscribed-patchbox

[Mike Brooks]

Nifty. I'll have to drive over there and have a look at 'ol #21

[WESTbury]

Nifty. I'll have to drive over there and have a look at 'ol #21

Excellent Mike.

AND,
Perhaps this is the place to start The ALR Standard Unknown Rifle Socker Identification Program . This possible Berks County rifle may have been built by J W Graef or Wolfgang Hachen.
Please inform the people at Rock Island.

[Dobyns]

I don't recall having seen a "Reading" with lock panels as huge as that 2nd link.

[Mike Brooks]

Nifty. I'll have to drive over there and have a look at 'ol #21

Excellent Mike.

AND,
Perhaps this is the place to start The ALR Standard Unknown Rifle Socker Identification Program . This possible Berks County rifle may have been built by J W Graef or Wolfgang Hachen.
Please inform the people at Rock Island.

The people at RIACO are fully aware of the conversation that goes on here.

[Mike Brooks]

I don't recall having seen a "Reading" with lock panels as huge as that 2nd link.

No kidding eh?

[Buck]

I’m guessing it’s a restock. The furniture is disproportionate to the stock. The lock and lock bolt panels are a later period architecturally as is the incised carving that is typically found in the Susquehanna region.

Buck

Kent - could you explain your post?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Just to be blunt, not really a fan of that replaced box lid.  I think the original replaced box - though maybe not as accurate - was better matched.

This is the one with the weird and unexplained "oops" hole through the back of the butt (under the buttplate of course) and at least halfway into the box mortice.  A few different ways to interpret that one! 

Earl had this for a while and had some castings made of the cock; I still have one or two that I save for special projects.  FANTASTIC lock.

[Dobyns]

I’m guessing it’s a restock. The furniture is disproportionate to the stock. The lock and lock bolt panels are a later period architecturally as is the incised carving that is typically found in the Susquehanna region.

you mean a restock in the 1950s or 60s, right?

[Buck]

Dobyns,

It’s my opinion it’s a restock. I couldn’t speak to the date - anybody's guess.

Buck

[WESTbury]

Kent - could you explain your post?

Buck,

Here is the Reader's Digest version.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=72367.0

Kent

[WESTbury]

Just to be blunt, not really a fan of that replaced box lid.  I think the original replaced box - though maybe not as accurate - was better matched.

I guess somebody along the way took Shumway's critique of the replaced lid shown in RCA to heart and tried to correct the situation. Sometimes things are well enough left alone.

[WESTbury]

Reading RIA's write-up for the rifle, the Describer made a point of mentioning the screw securing the nosecap to the bottom of the barrel as if it was an important feature.

[Mike Brooks]

It is important

[WESTbury]

It is important

Mike,
I'm guessing that you are referencing that many believe that the screw method of attaching the nosecap to the barrel is a characteristic on early barrels. But, early is a relative term. Since the great preponderance of these rifles are not dated by their stockers, what time frame are we considering as "early"?
Kent

[Buck]

Kent,

It keeps the nose cap from falling off.

Buck

[WESTbury]

Kent,
It keeps the nose cap from falling off.
Buck

Quite correct Buck. Screws are used to keep objects together which I learned in 40 years of fixture and machine design.

Your astute observation still does not answer my question as to what dates may appear apply to this method of nose cap retention rather than the use of pins.

[Eric Kettenburg]

It's primarily a pre-War characteristic.  Of course there were rivets being used pre-War too, but this method (screw into a lug or occasionally directly into the barrel) is almost always a pre-War characteristic, which helps to reinforce the assertion that this is a pre-War rifle.  This is probably why they specifically mentioned it.

As far as i know, it seems to be a method that originated in Germany earlier on.

[rich pierce]

(Written while Eric was responding above)
The screw holding the nosecap in place is a rare feature associated with guns often commonly believed stocked pre-1770-ish. The Musician’s rifle, RCA 21, the Marshall rifle, the tulip rifle, and the Natty Bumpo rifle come to my mind. I forget if the Deschler rifle and RCA 42 share this feature. Please correct me where I’m mistaken.

Since none of these have a date (except one scratched on the patchbox of the Musician’s rifle), assigning a “must be before” date is impossible.

Features like this are also sporadic. In other words, found on a small subset of guns believed to have been made around the same time.

[Mike Brooks]

It is important

Mike,
I'm guessing that you are referencing that many believe that the screw method of attaching the nosecap to the barrel is a characteristic on early barrels. But, early is a relative term. Since the great preponderance of these rifles are not dated by their stockers, what time frame are we considering as "early"?
Kent

Feel free to school me on this just like you did on the Dutch wall gun.

[JTR]

As for the screw in the nose cap, it is a good indicator of an early rifle. Along with the screw, the barrel will generally be short, say 40 inches or so, big bore, with the rear sight about halfway between the RR entry pipe and the breach, with the signature, if there is one, between the rear sight and the breach. If you look through RCA, you'll find a half dozen or so guns with the screw. Some have only the screw in the nose cap, and others have the screw and an iron rivet.
Also, a lug dovetailed into the barrel is the most common receptacle for the screw, though as pointed out by Eric, screwed directly into the barrel is known as well.

Think back a couple months to the Joel Ferree signed rifle posted here.  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69696.0
The barrel is about 40" long, and it has the rear sight about half way between the RR entry pipe and the breach, and along with other indicators, would suspect it's a 1770, or even a bit earlier gun. Certainly, pre Rev War.

Just my opinion of course, John

PS, I suspect some new pictures of the Joel Ferree rifle might show up pretty soon..... 

[WESTbury]

John,

Thanks for the informative reply.

The barrel is 47 inches long. Looks to be .50 cal. The end of the muzzle is funneled so that I can get a 1/2" dia. dowel in to about 1/4" depth. The rear sight is 14" from the breech and located about 1" forward of the entry pipe.

The barrel and forend of the stock have not been stretched. There is a very worn signature about midway between the rear sight and the breech. The signature is "J Graeff". The breechplug tang is squared off and about 2-1/4" long.

All of these photos are from a presentation I put together over a year ago but never posted on the ALR. I have 35 photos.

[Buck]

Kent,

I’d appreciate the opportunity to see the presentation you put together. It’s obvious your passionate about the research and the hobby, I’d assume it should be an interesting piece.

Please share,

Buck

[WESTbury]

Kent
I’d appreciate the opportunity to see the presentation you put together. It’s obvious your passionate about the research and the hobby, I’d assume it should be an interesting piece.
Please share,
Buck

Buck,

Appreciate your interest. The presentation has a few rough edges, but I will smooth them out and post later today if possible.

Kent

[Mike Brooks]

The main problem with this attachment is the wood can't move with changes in humidity.  I suspect it has caused a lot of forestock damage over the past few centuries, especially with longer barrels. I have seen this feature on germanic rifles as well. Which is where the practice certainly originated.