Ramrod Length on a Colonial Kit

[Bellke]

I recently completed a Kibler Colonial kit (BTW, love the rifle) but I have a question about the ramrod length.  I've marked the length of the ramrod in an empty barrel but when I insert it in the ramrod holder, it goes in about 2" inches less than in the empty barrel.  If I cut the ramrod there, it would disappear in an empty barrel and I would have to turn the rifle upside down for the ramrod to slide out.

I can force the ramrod in about another inch or so but then can hardly pull the ramrod back out.  If it was cut to barrel length, I'd never get it out because there would nothing to grip on to.  If I rotate the ramrod a 1/4 to 1/2 turn, I can hear the metal tip hitting metal.  When I mark that spot on the ramrod and hold it to the side of the rifle, it's the same length as the front lock bolt.  When I remove the front lock bolt, I can insert the ramrod all the way with no binding or having to use any extra force.  If I cut it even with the barrel there while in the holder, I would have about 1/2" sticking out of the top of an empty barrel which would seem to be the correct length. But of course, I can't leave the front lock bolt out.

Anyone run into this before and have any thoughts what to do.  This is my 1st kit, is this normal?  Do I cut the ramrod shorter than the barrel length even though that doesn't seem right?

I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks

[Mike Brooks]

Taper the rod

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

He's already got the rod tip installed on the rod, so tapering it now, though it would work, would require a new smaller rod tip. 
I would cut away the wood in the bottom of the rod hole with a scraper.  Acquire a piece of drill rod or even mild steel rod that is one size smaller than your hole, eg:  if your rod hole is 3/8", the scraper will be 5/16".  Upset the business end of the rod and file a hook cutter that is just a little larger than the rod's diameter.
Bend a slight hump into the rod just back of the hook so that the hump will ride on the upper surface of the rod hole.  File away all of the hookfrom the sides and top of the rod, leaving only a cutter along the bottom edge.  The hook cuts on the pull, so when you slide the rod into the hole right to its end, the hump will press on the top of the hole and the cutter will remove wood from the bottom of the rod hole.  Do this work with the lock and it's bolts off the rifle.  It will only take a couple of passes to remove enough wood to clear that ramrod, and it'll go all the way to the bottom of the rod hole.  Thanks to Dan Phariss for the tip.  On my scraper, I bent the other end up 90 degrees to make a pulling/pushing handle and the scraper rod rides in the rod groove.

[davec2]

Depending on how severe the interference is between the lock bolt and the ram rod, the lock bolt can be turned in the middle to a smaller diameter.  I usually only leave a very thin web between the bottom of the barrel chanel and the ram rod groove / hole and I have done this often to allow the ram rod to pass.  If you take out the lock and then slide the ram rod into place, you should be able to see how high it comes into the forward lock bolt hole.  If not too much, just turn a narrower diameter in the middle of the lock bolt.  You can do that with a drill and a file.  Hope this helps.  You just have to remember to pull out the ram rod when you want to remove the forward lock bolt in the future.

[FALout]

Every rifle I build, the first thing I check after drilling/threading for lock bolts is to check for interference of the ram rod.  Laying everything out before hand helps, but it still happens.  I get these issues sorted out way before putting on a finish, easier to deal with without chancing damaging all your work.

[Mike Lyons]

Every rifle I build, the first thing I check after drilling/threading for lock bolts is to check for interference of the ram rod.  Laying everything out before hand helps, but it still happens.  I get these issues sorted out way before putting on a finish, easier to deal with without chancing damaging all your work.

That’s cheating Bob!  Half the fun is running the ramrod down the hole on a finished gun and hitting the  bolt.  That is great advice you gave.  I’ve picked up a couple good pieces of advice over time and it always makes things easier to deal with.  On my current build,  I’ll be checking my ramrod as soon as I install my lock bolts just as you’ve instructed. Thanks for the tip.

[Jim Kibler]

Taper the rod.  There’s a strong chance it’s not binding at the top, but rather, somewhere further back.  The rod tip is sized such that it shouldn’t bind in the hole.

I guess there is a possibility the tip could be interfering with the lock bolt.  Test this by removing the bolt and installing the rod.  If it works without the front lock bolt, let me know.  I can help.

[Bob Gerard]

On one Colonial I built, Jim had already turned the forward lock bolt on a lathe ( I am assuming a lathe) to narrow where the ramrod was passing below. I would contact Jim Kibler and ask for his advise.

[smylee grouch]

What would be better, putting an index mark on the head of that lock bolt then notching the bolt only on the bottom to let the rod pass and tightening the bolt to that index mark OR turning the bolt to let the rod pass? 

[davec2]

Smylee,

I like to turn the entire diameter down.  I have inadvertently turned a notched forward lock bolt with a screwdriver and ended up putting a notch in my ram rod.  Most lock bolts are 8-32 and I have often used 6-32.  The root diameter on a 6-32 bolt is less than 0.100 and I have taken the lock bolt diameter down to 0.060" or less where I have turned the diameter smaller to let the ram rod pass.  If that seems a little small,  put one end of a piece of 1/16" weld rod or steel wire in your bench vise and then wrap the other end a few times around a piece of dowel or a screwdriver.  Now pull on it until it the wire breaks (if you can break it at all... )  How much force does it take to hold the forward end of a lock in place ?   

[smart dog]

Hi,
Here is one way they solved the lock bolt problem back in the day.





Jim Kibler should recognize this particular lock bolt.  Oh, and the screw slot was never indexed with the barrel on this one.

dave

[hanshi]

I use hickory rods I make from blanks.  One end has a tip for screw-in accessories; the other end stays bare and I taper them to fit.

[Bellke]

Taper the rod.  There’s a strong chance it’s not binding at the top, but rather, somewhere further back.  The rod tip is sized such that it shouldn’t bind in the hole.

I guess there is a possibility the tip could be interfering with the lock bolt.  Test this by removing the bolt and installing the rod.  If it works without the front lock bolt, let me know.  I can help.

Jim..  There was a fairly good warp to the rod that I mostly straightened out, but there is still a slight bend in it when I roll it on a table.  I have to give it a little more pressure right before it starts hitting the front lock bolt.  When I take the bolt out it seems to go in fine with just a right amount of retention. 

A couple of things I've thought about since posting this is to file the tip slightly, I can see marks from the bolt.  That may help in addition to reducing the diameter of the rod more.  Lastly, I was thinking of doing some filing on the bolt itself since I only need the threads at the end.  Not quite as much as the pic Smart Dog posted, but something like that.

[Bellke]

I use hickory rods I make from blanks.  One end has a tip for screw-in accessories; the other end stays bare and I taper them to fit.

Ok, I'm going to feel really stupid depending on your answer.  The end I'm inserting into the Ramrod holder is the metal tip for the screw-in accessories.  Am I using the wrong end (Bass Backwards?) and it's the bare wood end I should be inserting into the holder?  This is my 1st flintlock and I was going by the pics I saw, but doing it the way you said will work.  I can take enough wood off of it to fit.  It would be really tapered at one end, but if I do it gradually, it may not even be noticeable.  And be the simpler solution.

[Kevin Houlihan]

 The metal tip goes in first.  File the tip, file the lock bolt or talk to Jim Kibler directly.  There is nothing sacred about the parts as they arrive.  Sometimes it doesn't take much to make things all come together.
Good luck,
Kevin

[rick/pa]

I've done it both ways, taper the back end and it goes into the hole with the metal tip on the forward end, or use one size smaller metal tip on the back end, taper the rod from the back forwards, and have the bare end out front.  I like the last way better.  Now I just have to figure out how to make a horn end for the front of the rod.

[geb324]

Either way is correct its your gun.

[Jim Kibler]

I think as a rule the tip to accept a worm etc. was inserted into the stock on original work. 

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Hi,
Here is one way they solved the lock bolt problem back in the day.





Jim Kibler should recognize this particular lock bolt.  Oh, and the screw slot was never indexed with the barrel on this one.

dave

Yeah, I remember this now.  It's been a while.  That was a neat gun and I'm happy you've got to learn from it and enjoy it.  I recall a Belgian gun I had where the screw was clearanced in a similar manner.  In this case there was a slash filed on the head to indicate tightening alignment.

Jim

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
I learned a LOT from that fowler. 

dave

[kutter]

Put some inletting black on the shaft of the front lock bolt. Insert it in place.
Take the ramrod and put a piece of masking tape on the tip of the rod only. Trim it off cleanly around the edge.

Insert the rod down the RR hole till it hits the bolt, then withdraw it.
Look at the black mark on the tape.
It will tell you how much of the shaft of the lock bolt is interfering with the ramrod.

Then you can tighten up the bolt and mark it for an indexed position so you know where the bottom of the shaft sits.
Remove and file just that amt needed for the RR to clear.

If the lockbolt becomes loose over time and needs tightening up /wants to overtighten,,which will displace the filed cutout.
A simple card shim under the bolt head will put things back in order.
Use a brass shim if card isn't period correct enough.

[PIKELAKE]

I have had to notch a few lock bolts on a couple of my rifles and made sure I mentioned to my sons that to pull the lock, you must first remove the ram rod. Even I have to try to remember this first step and I built the guns.  JZ