Author Topic: Fusil kits  (Read 3742 times)

Offline Bushfire

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Fusil kits
« on: July 18, 2022, 01:02:26 AM »
If I were to go down the fusil de chasse kit direction I could get a smith here to put it together for me for hopefully not too much money.

My question is, what fusil kits do people recommend?

I want either a 16 or 20 gauge,
a flat faced breach (no patent/chambered breach),
a gun that will keep its balance with a shortened barrel (my gun safe can’t hold a gun longer than 54” in length)
Something that can handle heavier charges that I favour for hunting.
preference is for something that is fairly accurate to the originals but doesn’t need to be spot on.
Lastly and most importantly, the lock needs to be of high quality. I want a hunting gun to be proud of in function.

Appreciate any suggestions.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2022, 01:39:06 AM »
You lost me at the "hopefully for not too much money "   :)

Offline taco650

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2022, 03:04:59 AM »
I'm not a builder with 20+ years of experience so take that into consideration while reading the rest of this post. 

I've assembled exactly three BP firearms from kits and one from parts I bought off the interwebs and a piece of tulip poplar I cut down in my yard.  The kits were the low budget affairs and all four have been caplocks.  However, I hope that some day I can afford a Jim Chambers Edwin Marshall kit in .58 cal.  I've searched a lot of the popular places on the Web and Chambers, Pecatonica and Tennesse Valley Arms seem to offer the best kits.  I also think you could do the work yourself with basic tools if you're handy.  Good luck!

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2022, 03:57:07 AM »
PM sent just to express my view w/o drama.
Andover, Vermont

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2022, 04:03:47 AM »
I wasn't being sarcastic. Your questions are very specific re a fusil de  chasse.
That limits things considerably, since you want a recommendation for a kit. especially considering your list of "wants" 
In your response to my post, you say you want a nice rifle ? If a rifle, there are lots of kits, from Chambers, TVM, Kibler, Cabin Creek, etc etc etc.
If you aren't picky about the type of smoothbore, I would highly recommend Chambers as being amongst the most historically accurate and functional kit suppliers out there. If you want someone else to build it for you, I have seen quotes of from $700 to $1000+ to do that.  I have their New England fowling gun in 10 bore and the Pennsylvania fowler in 28 bore.  You can have the barrels cut back if you desire.
Now...if you have patience, you could wait for Kibler's smoothbore to hit the market. Price will be well within your budget, and you will have the 16 bore, fast handling, and performing gun you desire....but it won't be a fusil de chasse  :)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2022, 04:26:08 AM »
The current situation is that it’s very hard for any supplier not self-sourcing all their parts to round up everything needed for a complete kit. Chances are good that something will be out of stock and you’ll be looking at 4-6 months wait, best case scenario. So all you can do is contact all possible kit suppliers for French fusils and see who has something in stock. Then ask them for a recent reference or ask here about so-and so’s fusil kit.

We are spoiled now and got used to dozens to scores of barrels in stock, hundreds of castings, dozens of lock choices, and a few score of kit choices spanning 1740-1860, rifled, smooth, halfstock, fullstock, this school, that school, flint, percussion. It wasn’t that way in the 70s and we had a great time. Didn’t know any better!

Most kits require some wrangling. What you don’t want is sloppy inlets.

Another option is to buy a complete gun, new or used, longer than you want and cut it down. It happened back then too. Fusil barrels are known to blow up when the barrel is plugged with snow. Might have to come up with another story down under. Best of luck.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2022, 07:47:22 PM »
And when I say not too much, I'm still budgeting on $3000 which is a $#*! of a lot of money to me. That has to get me a kit, convert it to Australian dollars, ship it here and have it finished.


 Not to be a "Buzz Killer" but is the $3000 over all in American dollars or Australian? In U.S. currency it comes out to about $2040 and the $2000 for the kit to about $1360.

  Good Luck, Tim C.

 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 09:10:22 AM by Tim Crosby »

Offline martin9

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2022, 06:06:25 AM »
Faced with that exchange rate and other obstacles I would start thinking about building a gun yourself....I can think of several pretty good reasons
You can source a stock blank locally and save a lot of money.
get the barrel length you want instead of ordering a kit and having to shorten it
Buy parts along to spread out the cost
and finally building your own gun oughta be worth 1 or 2 magazine articles...just take plenty of pics while you do it 

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2022, 06:37:17 AM »
You can get a nice, plane Maple Fusil de Chasse kit from Pecatonica River for under a thousand US dollars. Clay Smith can also provide a kit for a bit more.
Not sure about shipping costs to your country, however.


web upload image



« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 06:43:39 AM by Bob Gerard »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2022, 01:25:41 PM »
If you want a bit closer to originals, a walnut stock would be my choice.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dwshotwell

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2022, 03:04:48 PM »
I can’t speak to Clay Smith’s fusil kits, but I just received one of his pistol kits and the stock appears really well done and the components high quality, so I’d expect the same in the fusil.
David Shotwell

Offline smart dog

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2022, 03:26:36 PM »
Hi Bushfire,
Your list of requirements suggests to me that you are considering the wrong gun.  I seem to remember some post of yours indicating you wanted something French-like but your shooting and handling requirements scream English sporting rifle loud and clear.  French trade guns were iconic for being long, slim and graceful so cutting it back ruins that quality.  I don't care if they were sometimes cut back historically, that is not the point if you want to capture that style.  The stocks of mid-18th and early 19th century English sporting guns beat any fusil de chasse hands down for handling and performance. They can be light, handy, handle heavy loads comfortably, no cheek slapping because of a poorly designed "Roman nose" comb and high wrist.  For simplicity of supply, Chambers English sporting rifle would be an excellent choice.   

dave
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2022, 04:30:30 PM »
Hi Bushfire,
Your list of requirements suggests to me that you are considering the wrong gun.  I seem to remember some post of yours indicating you wanted something French-like but your shooting and handling requirements scream English sporting rifle loud and clear.  French trade guns were iconic for being long, slim and graceful so cutting it back ruins that quality.  I don't care if they were sometimes cut back historically, that is not the point if you want to capture that style.  The stocks of mid-18th and early 19th century English sporting guns beat any fusil de chasse hands down for handling and performance. They can be light, handy, handle heavy loads comfortably, no cheek slapping because of a poorly designed "Roman nose" comb and high wrist.  For simplicity of supply, Chambers English sporting rifle would be an excellent choice.   

dave
Or Chambers English Officer's Fusil if you want a smooth bored gun.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2022, 05:03:31 PM »
He’s French!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2022, 06:55:58 PM »
He’s French!
I suppose he'll just have to take a beating from that stock. ;)
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline alacran

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2022, 02:55:04 PM »
I would do the English gun. More rewarding for a Frenchman to say it was a spoil of war.
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Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2022, 08:57:09 PM »
Bushfire, G'day!
When I first read about that "newish" Australian law about keeping even a M/L locked in a safe when not in use, I was astounded!  I might understand if it only pertained to firearms kept inside city limits, but, Man!  Your "outside city limits" is astoundingly huge!

And on something like a sheep station, I could foresee conditions where having one a bit closer to hand might be well advised - you have a host of dangerous critters around.

So - sympathy offered if you are out in the countryside.  And congratulations on finding something close to home to satisfy your needs.

Hope to visit your fair land before I croak, so sometime in the next 8-10 years.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline Cossack

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2022, 07:14:50 AM »
It seems like your budget isn't unrealistic, although I don't know how much shipping will run you. You've got a fat $2000 USD - think around $1000 for the kit, $800 or so for the build, and a couple hundred for the ride. I would say call or email around and line up the gunsmith and the kit provider to determine availability, timeline, and cost. Make sure your gunsmith fully understands this kind of build - I'm sure there are fewer Aussie gunsmiths who do this kind of thing than here in the states. As I'm sure you already know, building a kit like this isn't the type of job your average gunsmith does.

As others mentioned above, Pecatonica River Supply and Clay Smith offer French Fusil kits. R E Davis also offers a kit on their website, and I've heard good things about it. Track of the Wolf isn't showing their Tulle Fusil de Chasse kit right now, but they're showing the parts, including precarve stock. I'd contact them to see if they'll put a kit together and for how much. Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading also offers a kit and a completed gun for $1850 USD. As far as authenticity goes, I'd assume Clay Smith does the most accurate of the choices here, perhaps followed by RE Davis. Of course Smith's is the most expensive.

As I mentioned, contact each seller for availability - like Rich pointed out, a lot of parts are in short supply at the moment, so just because a kit is advertised doesn't mean it will be available any time soon. Many kits are carved to order, so check timeline.

I'll briefly address your comment about costs and the future of traditional muzzleloading. You have a valid point. I'm also a father with young kids and understand well where you're coming from. I think there's a place for mass-produced guns like Thompson Center and Pedersoli produce. I also think there's a place for semi-custom guns from higher volume hand-makers like Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading and the late Tip Curtis. These guns offer various tiers of historical accuracy and handling characteristics that are reflected at their price points. (Finally, there's the unique niche occupied by Kibler kits,: historically accurate, easy-to assemble kits for the beginniner - but they don't make the style you want). But the fact is, building a well-made muzzleloader by hand with attention to detail and accuracy takes materials and time. I think that most gunmakers sell their work at a price that, if broken down, would result in an abysmally low hourly rate. Many do this to make a living or to supplement a living. It's just not feasible to expect that kind of work to come cheap.

With that in mind I'd urge you to consider the TVM Tulle Fusil. If you're just getting a kit, I'd perhaps consider the Pecatonica or Davis kit first (or, if you can make the numbers add up right with your gunsmith, the CLay SMith kit). TVM gets a lot of criticism for not being as historically accurate as full custom builders, and also for leaving too much wood on the stock. However, they produce a good functional gun and are, in my experience, decent people to work with. I've emailed Matt Avance a few times, and my friend bought a gun from them that he's very happy with. I had a secondhand TVM rifle for a while that was attractive and shot well. For $1850 USD they'd make you their version of a Tulle Fusil de Chasse in probably about a year, give or take. It'll be attractive and functional. The lock will be high quality. They could make it any length you want and you could discuss any other considerations with Matt. These might change the price somewhat. If you're up for doing the final finishing yourself, you could save $100 USD by getting it "in the white" (unfinished).

I think walnut is a cost upgrade as well, unfortunately. It's built in to the cost of the clay smith kit at $1150.

TVM isn't going to give you the nicest, most historically accurate gun, but I think they have their place. It's worth contacting Matt to see what he can do about timelines and his cost for shipping a completed gun down under.

I guess I don't know if Oz has any funny restrictions about importing a completed muzzleloader (or even a kit!). You might already know, but I'd be sure both you and whoever you're buying from should make sure you know all of the red tape before you commit!

Good luck!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 07:23:02 AM by Cossack »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2022, 02:37:03 PM »
Glad you got a gun that works for you!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cossack

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2022, 05:42:40 PM »
Glad you got a gun that works for you!

Oops. Somehow I missed that detail before writing my long-winded reply!

Show us what you got, Bushfire!

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2022, 03:30:30 PM »
Good for you. That is a nice gun  :)   I'm sure it will give you many years of enjoyment.

Offline Not English

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Re: Fusil kits
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2022, 06:06:19 AM »
Bushfire, I've had something of an awakening regarding smooth bore shooting. I've always loaded them from a rifleman's point of view. I recently purtchased a .58 smooth rifle. The builder recommended a .535 rpound ball and a heavy patch. I was able to start a patched ball with very little thumb pressure. With a 45gr load of 3f it would shoot sub 3" groups at 35 yds. I plan on pursuing this thinking. At this point, I would recommend a ball that's .45 to .40 smaller than the bore that's patched and experiment with powder loads and various grains of powder.