Wood/caliber decision

[bnewberry]

Jim, if it is any consolation, you smile a lot more when you are talking to people!

[jgraham1]

The ladies in our lives are all angels. They put up with us.

Jerry

[Rado]

Seems like the question of this topic has been answered, so I hope the thread starter doesnt mind if I add an own, similar question instead of opening a new thread for a strictly theoretical thought.

I want to order a Kibler kit but Im also not sure which caliber, and which kit to choose.
Im from Europe, with its restrictive gun laws and I will never hunt even rats with my rifle. As I said: My question is only theoretical.

If I was a longhunter, trapper, settler etc with limited budget or possibility to carry things and could choose only one rifle in a certain caliber and only one granulation of black powder, for all my needs, for all possible circumstances, what would it be?
I love the looks of Kiblers Southern Mountain Rifle but imagine you have to defend youself from a bear in the woods.
Would a 50 caliber rifle with long barrel (read:the Colonial) be enough for a bear, a wild hog or an elk? Maybe not ethical but still enough?
Would the Woodsrunner with its shorter barrel be enough?
Im just not sure if the Mountain Rifle with its 45 caliber max, is really the right choice for an all purpose longrifle although Im totally in love with how it looks.

What are your thoughts?

[bob in the woods]

You need to define "all purpose".   Everything depends on use.  If you aren't hunting, a smaller caliber would work fine for most.  For target work out to 100 yards, I've used a .45 and been happy with the results, although my dedicated target rifle is a .54

[Rado]

Yeah I thought already that there is no such thing as "all purpose".
But maybe "as many tasks as possible" according to you guys first hand hunting experiences.
Personally, I will take it to Poland when I visit my family there (I live in Hamburg/Germany) and take it to an outdoor shooting range. Thats all.

I just had the thought: What if you were a longhunter back then, packed a small caliber for economical reasons and were confronted with a bear or a mountain lion or something like that?
So Im asking myself what would the best compromise caliber?
Another reason is that I have plenty of 3Fg powder but only 2lbs of 2Fg Swiss powder and at the moment its not easy to get more of it.
I would prefer something just strong enough for said multipurpose use but still for 3Fg powder.
But IS 50 cal ´enough´? Is maybe even 45 cal enough?

[ScottH]

Rado
I live in the western USA. Where I occasionally hunt, we have grizzly bears. I'm of the school of thought that bigger is better when it comes to putting down large size (bigger than our whitetail deer or mule deer) game animals. We hunt elk here with our muzzleloaders, my largest at this moment is a .54.
So my answer to your question is I would order a Kibler in either the Colonial or Woodsrunner in either .54 or.58 caliber and be confident that I'm prepared for whatever.
Best of luck!
ScottH

[Rado]

Thank you!
And a 50 caliber would be suicidal or just unethical?

In the end it will probably be the SMR in 45 cal because its the wisest choice for a ´range only´ rifle. And I know I would regret not having bought what I think is the most pretty one.
Its just interesting to go into the details of a topic where I cant make first hand experience.

[Daryl]

Scott- the .58 would be the wiser choice. You can kill an elk, moose or grizzle with a .45, but bigger is better. If restricted to a .58 as being tops - then it is.
It will also handle all the rest of the game you wish to shoot. I even shot grouse with mine, using card wads and shot.

[Top Jaw]

While I have shot deer with a 45 round ball, I would choose a 50 at a minimum in a dedicated whitetail deer rifle - and preferably a 54 caliber (which I don’t currently own).  Reason being is the blood trail is typically much better with these larger calibers.

Rich stated 15-20 seconds for a double lung hit.  Agreed.  However, when running, deer can cover a considerable distance through brush and terrain in 20 seconds - even when fatally hit.  A better blood trail is always an advantage in those cases. 

[alacran]

Bigger hole in the barrel = lighter rifle. Bigger is always better for hunting.

[oldtravler61]

  Three things matter when shooting any big game animal.
  One is shot placement.
  Two The round ball or bullet has to perform properly.
  Last but not least you have to know your capabilities to make a Humane killing shot.
  But when you are only going to shoot paper. To me what's the point of wasting extra lead and powder if you don't need too ?   
 

[smylee grouch]

I agree with the bigger is better crowd. A 45 will kill a lot of game but all else equal a 54 or 58 will do it faster and with a more convincing  blood trail because there is a better chance for a pass through and two bleeding wounds. JMHO after using just about every cal. from 45-62

[Rado]

Very enlightening. Thank you gentlemen.

[bob in the woods]

Just buy the Kibler SMR in .45 cal, with a walnut stock and you can dream about all the fantastic one shot stops you make on charging grizzly bears with superb shot placement      Then go shoot some paper.

[Rado]

Yes...woke Europe in a nutshell.
But it will be extrafancy maple if anything. The kilo of 2Fg Swiss powder was bought for my P1853 Enfield. So if I have an encounter with a bear on my way to the range, Im not totally defenseless.

I find it kinda interesting that one of the main characteristics of Longrifles are their small, economical calibers, while their golden age was at a time when the Continent was the most dangerous.

[bob in the woods]

As far as the continent being dangerous at that time ie the mid to late 1700's, I would say the dangers were more human related than animal. There are many accounts of black bears being hunted and killed with .40 caliber guns .  If you look at the historical accounts, and the rifles depicted in the 2 volumes of Rifles of Colonial America { RCA 1 and 2 ]  the most common calibers are in the .50 area.  The main animals that were hunted were deer and black bear, although there was a period when the woodland Bison were hunted [ referred to as wild beef ]  I haven't seen any reference to having larger caliber rifles for this.  The SMR style is from the early 1800's, and much of the larger game in the East was hunted out by then, so the story goes.   If you like the style, an SMR in .45 would be a really nice rifle that would do what you will likely use it for. 
Of course, you can always buy a Colonial style in .58 as well.  Problem solved 

[Rado]

I still have to read a lot. My interest in longrifles started a few months ago. Civil War era firearms, two years ago. Therefore Im pretty clueless yet.
With customs charges, value added tax and shipping, the rifle will cost me around 2000€/$.
And then I need German proof marks and a so called "European Firearms passport" so I can travel with it between countries. Expensive fun.
So, for now Im planning to buy only one. Maybe much later a second one.

50 caliber was what I was thinking about all the time because its the largest which still can be fed with 3Fg powder.
I wish the SMR was available in 50 cal.
But if you say .40 caliber can kill even a black bear...Seems like .45 is really alright then. I wouldnt have thought.
When I look at the 457. round balls or Johnston & Dow conicals for my percussion revolvers, they dont look all that impressive.
Especially when compared to the Pritchett projectiles for the .58 Enfield.

[B.Habermehl]

I’m highly impressed with .58 for white tail deer medicine. All the deer I’ve shot with my .58 cal English rifle went down within sight of the spot they were standing when they were hit with a round ball. Usually three or four bounds that’s about all. A couple of instant collapses. I allways aim for the center of the heart lung area. I prefer to miss the heart, I do love my pickled deer heart. BJH

[alacran]

As far as hunting in the 18th century goes. There were no hunting laws. You could hunt at night in a full moon. You could use buck and ball. You could bait animals. You could use dogs. You could use live bait. You could shoot sows with cubs. You were not interested in a humane kill. A blood trail would suffice. Your dog would find the game. Most bears that were shot with a .40 were up a tree, and not charging you. Bob in the Woods is correct other humans were the most dangerous thing to a hunter in those days. They still are.

[Dphariss]

I’m thinking about doing a dedicated hunting rifle with the kibler woodsrunner kit.

I have one of his colonial kits in .50 and with fancy maple completed.  I had no intentions of using it for hunting at the time I completed it, so I spent ALOT of time finishing it.

I’m thinking I don’t want to see that rifle getting beat up in the woods, and for deer I would rather have a .54 anyway.

I’m looking for advice on the wood choice.  Am I correct in thinking that walnut would be the tougher/better wood choice for a dedicated hunting rifle?  Or would maple be just as tough/durable?

I know that I can’t be the first one asking, but here goes…I’m completely setup for .50 cal, would it be worth it to go with the .54 for deer, or would .50 be fine. 
Really the only thing I would have to do is grab different balls, maybe some patches, so it really doesn’t matter, just want to know if it’s worth the caliber change.

If you are hunting deer 50 cal is plenty. 54 is OK and I have hunted with them and shot a few with a 58. I don’t consider 54 to 58 to be a worth it. The 54 seems to be a good upgrade from 50. But not needed for deer. Actually on a deer, Mule Deer or WT I can’t say there is a difference in any of the “50s” on the critter. Shot placement will trump ball size.

[Dphariss]

I have no idea how many deer I have shot with a Rb stopped counting at 70 about 30 years or more ago. And I have shot or seen shot more. With a WIDE variety of modern and 18th-19th c designs. I can count on one had the deer that have dropped to the shot where the brain or spinal cord was not involved or heavily shocked. I have had them run 200 steps shot with a 50 or 54 Rb and I have seen then run just as far with a good hit from a modern magnum. I have had then pile in 40-50 yards (the typical distance regardless of the firearm) with something pretty darned anemic even by 45 rb standards.
I had a doe run 55 long steps hit with a .662 ball MV 1600 at about 40 yards, frontal raking shot. Ball flattened back 1/2 way. Destroyed the top of the heart completely. Could see blood pouring from the wound. Did not run very good but ran. And never went down till the brain ran out of Oxygen.
Blood trail

[Dphariss]

I still have to read a lot. My interest in longrifles started a few months ago. Civil War era firearms, two years ago. Therefore Im pretty clueless yet.
With customs charges, value added tax and shipping, the rifle will cost me around 2000€/$.
And then I need German proof marks and a so called "European Firearms passport" so I can travel with it between countries. Expensive fun.
So, for now Im planning to buy only one. Maybe much later a second one.

50 caliber was what I was thinking about all the time because its the largest which still can be fed with 3Fg powder.
I wish the SMR was available in 50 cal.
But if you say .40 caliber can kill even a black bear...Seems like .45 is really alright then. I wouldnt have thought.
When I look at the 457. round balls or Johnston & Dow conicals for my percussion revolvers, they dont look all that impressive.
Especially when compared to the Pritchett projectiles for the .58 Enfield.

The SMR would be too light in 50 .
And I shoot FFF Swiss in everything but my English style rifle that shoots a .662 ball.
45 is “ok” for deer but I like 50 cal a lot.  The 50-54 sighted right, abotu 3” high at 50 yards, with a load making 1800 fps or better will allow  shots to 115 -120 yards with not hold over. The 45 not. Might not be an issue where you live but I hunt both timber and prairie.





From this point a few miles East of Melville, MT you can see all the way to Wyoming. Well  to Granite Peak anyway. Its too hazy to see farther.  65 miles or so. Wyoming line is behind the mountain.

[Rado]

Im slowly tipping over to the Woodsrunner, BECAUSE of the caliber.
50 cal seems to be the universal multipurpose rifle I was thinking of.

[Dave Willer]

@!*% I hate to see my face.  I look like such a scowling shithead.  Now Katherine's lovely face is a different story!

That’s funny!

[mgbruch]

I've been hunting for 56 years; 48 of which include black powder rifles.  Over the years my guns have collected a few little scratches and dings; but nothing remotely close to what I would call "beat up".  I always take good care of my guns; especially in the field.  I watch where I set or lean them; and when walking a slope the gun gets carried on the downhill side of me.  If I should slip, I don't want the gun between me and the ground.    Anyway... seems a shame to have such a nice rifle and, if you're a hunter, not hunt with it.