Question on forged guards

[rich pierce]

I am interested in building a real "roots" iron-mounted rifle, 1770's, like the one Wallace showed us in a MB article a few years ago.  It will be a fantasy piece based on the "Old Holston Rifle" as it is called.  I got a nice iron forged buttplate from Mark Tornichio.  Now I need a guard and am fixing to forge one.  But it is not like later "Tennessee" or "Virginia" iron guards.  No sir.

As I see it: On the forged guard, which is "open", having no separate bow and rail (like some jaeger guards), there is no screw from below holding the front of the guard "up".  The forward extension also extends rearward and acts as the tricker plate.

I am thinking that the front extension/tricker plate is one piece with a hole or mortise in it, and that the bow/rail piece has a stud that extends up through that hole/mortise in the tricker plate/forward extension.  It might be welded or brazed, but could also just be pinned or peened into place.  Maybe the tang bolt holds the whole assembly in place.  Or maybe it is pinned in the sotck like a brass guard.

Has anyone seen this 2-piece design before?  I think I have seen it on a fabricated brass guard on a "jaeger". (some editing)

[California Kid]

I remember seeing that gun, but can't remember what issue. Probably was riveted and brazed with the tang screw holding the extension/ trigger plate assy. Just a guess

[Acer Saccharum]

Can't say I remember the gun, Rich.
Lots of the iron guards were riveted and brazed, tho. Not a bad way to go, entirely PC.

[t.caster]

Rich, I've done a few barnguns (Don's not the only one) where the guard bent up & back (hooked) in front, and was captured by the tricker plate. That what yer askin?
A real homespun method! So simple a caveman could do it.

[eagle24]

Rich,

I have seen what you are describing on an original Southern Rifle that showed up late on Sunday at the CLA Show this year.  At least I think it was what you are describing.  The bow was neither riveted or pinned or brazed or welded.  The trigger plate extended forward of the bow, about the length for a normal front trigger guard extension.  The bow itself, curled back and had no front extension and was forged to sit flat on the trigger plate (where I think you are talking about pinning or brazing).  The front tang bolt extended through the trigger plate and was threaded into the bow on the trigger guard holding both in place.

[J.D.]

I'm not sure how the front "pillar" may have been formed, but I would do it by folding and forge welding, maybe 3/8" bar, then bend the front of the bow down and draw it out. It will take some file work, for sure, to refine the pillar, front of the bow, and finial, but that's the way I would do it.

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.

God bless

[Bill of the 45th]

Rich, Ian Pratt had an early iron guard he was showing during his lecture at Dixons, that had the stud peened in place so that it could be pinned.  It was a wider possibly Carolina guard, I think like you're describing.  Maybe he'll see this and chime in, and provide a picture, and description of how its built.  It was done so well you could hardly see the seam lines.

Bill

[rich pierce]

Here is a quick sketch of what I think I see or would like to do.  This is for the "open guard" type- a "bow" type would be done in the usual 2 piece manner for the bow and grip rail etc.

The concept I am working with is that the bow/rail is one piece with a stud sticking up through the front extension/tricker plate combo.  A cross-pin above the front extension/tricker plate, solder, braze or a good peening could secure it.  Note that there is no screw going up through the front extension.  That is not present on the Old Holston gun or a later piece judged to be 1780's, both illustrated by Wallace Gusler.  What is your reaction?

There is no NEED for the front extension to also act as the tricker plate; it could be separate.

What I am looking for is a hand-forged early iron guard with many of the characteristics of cast brass guards- a nice boss for a sling hole, etc, no visible folds, no screw up through the front extension, and the possibility of pinning the guard through the post just like we do with brass guards.

[Acer Saccharum]

Rich,it looks like a perfectly viable design, and sturdy. Your fit depends on your workmanship; the guard post thru plate fit should be a good fit. I don't see any reason to affix the guard to the trikker/extension plate.

Like it.

tom

[M Tornichio]

Hi Rich,
It has been a while since I have been able to post anything. It looks like you will have quite a project going soon. I have a few pictures of my version of this rifle. I changed the guard in that mine has a bigger loop on the return than the original. Otherwise, I tried to keep it mostly the same in style. I am not a hundred percent sure on how the original was done, great thing about these iron mounts is since you are forging them, you have quite a bit of creativity for how you go about making them. I think your idea could work well. I think it might be quite a bit of work to get to the final product, but it would be unique to your rifle. which is great. I will say this simple style guard was much more difficult for me to forge then I would have first thought. Keeping everything straight and bent at the correct areas was quite difficult for me. I am going to attach a few pictures just for some inspiration. the rifle is not done yet, and the guard needs quite a bit for finishing, but I think you will get the idea.
Make sure you post pictures along the way. I am interested in seeing how it will turn out. Ian Pratt has this version of rifle well underway also. I was checking it out at his house a few weeks ago. He might already have it finished by now.

notice the off centered trigger slot on purpose. like many of the german rifles.



I hope this does not come of as hijacking your thread. That is not my intention.
Marc

[Jim Kibler]

Rich you sure ask some stupid questions. i am ashamed to be on the same web site as you. If it was up to me you'd be banned for life.


Just kidding, hey this is Ian Pratt, using Jim's computer, Jim is just putting back together a gun we did an autopsy on and while he ain't looking I thought I'd have some fun at everybody's expense. Hey that guard is a little different than you have envisioned it, on the original rifle the front extension is a flat piece about 3" long, about 3/4" extends rearward from the lug, it is drilled and tapped to receive the tang bolt. The long trigger plate extends back from that short piece of the front extension clear back to the rear extension, it appeared to be trapped both ends. it was roughly 1/2" wide with a slight swell at the trigger end. I didn't have permission to take the rifle apart so I have no way of knowing what went on under the guard, the way I did it was to lap both ends over the plate.
  The joint at the spur was forge welded. At the lug end -  look at the pictures in Muzzle Blasts, you see how there is a fat spot that faces out to the rear and tapers down onto the inside of the bow? What I think he did was forge weld a piece on and bent it back at a 90 to make the rear facing part of the extension. A simpler option may be to fatten that spot up and weld the whole 3" extension on.

Of course you can do whatever you want. This is still mostly a free country sometimes.
  
    
    

[M Tornichio]

Ian, did you finish your rifle yet? Would love to see pictures of it when you are done.

[rich pierce]

Marc, you do mighty nice work for a hijacker and a forger.  Great looking guard and rifle.  How does your guard "work" at the front end?  Is there a stud and is it pinned up inside the stock?  Is there a lump inside and the tang bolt threads in to it blind?  Give me particulars on the barrel etc.  Are you improving on the cheekpiece on the original?  I don't think I can bear to replicate THAT.  I am planning on using the Davis round face lock and a .62 D weight 44" Rice barrel.  Husky.

Kibbles, or I.P.Ratt, thanks for the tips on the original.  Would love to see it in person.  I've only forge welded a couple of things and don't have a forge anymore, but I can rig some kind of forge.  I'll be ciphering on it for a while.  Might use a wrought iron horseshoe I found.  How close to the original are you working regarding the mounts and architecture?

Might have to head to Ohio some time.

OK, I have more to add in edit.  How are you guys going to finish the mounts?  Case harden?  Age?  Bright?  Fire blue?  I might get them about right, re-heat till I get some scale on them, and wire brush with linseed oil while hot as the dickens.  They called them "black rifles", right?  Any sign of scaly black finish on the original?

[M Tornichio]

rich, I checked out the rifle and I just did a standard stud that is pinned through the stock. I was thinking of doing a rust blue on this rifle and then aging it. I have not done much aging, so I am looking forward to trying it out on this rifle. I did not do the cheek piece like the original. I used a style like the german style rifle in brass that was also in the article with this rifle. My rifle barrel is really not a great choice for this rifle. I am using a 38" 40 cal barrel. It is what I had on hand. I have changed so manythings on the build, I really am only going to call it a rifle inspired by the holston rifle, I can not claim that it even close to a copy. I would love to hear what the original finish was like on the steel. Really good questions.

[P.Bigham]

 There is also a similar open Gaurd that appears to be Iron In Long Rifles of Viriginia by Butler and whisker. Page 110. For Refrence.

[Dan'l 1946]

Ian, did you finish your rifle yet? Would love to see pictures of it when you are done.

I would really like to see some more photos of your rifle--now and after you finish it!  Dan