Author Topic: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits  (Read 6039 times)

Offline Bob Gerard

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Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« on: August 03, 2022, 01:44:35 AM »
The "Sparrow" pistol kit from MBS arrived today. Everything looks good and like a straight-forwards kit build... Except for one little thing.. the Butt Cap!
I am imagining how I will go about installing this diabolically grinning butt-head. I know in-letting it will be painstaking and that's ok. But that casting stem sticking up out of the bowl needs to go (these caps are screw-attached with one passing through the mask's mouth into the stock) and I have no idea how to do it. I imaging cutting as much as I can get to with a small hack saw and then using a small ball grinder perhaps? I'm just guessing here.
If anyone has done one of these could you give some hints as to how the best way to approach it would be?
Muchly appreciated,
Bob









Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2022, 03:27:14 AM »
Call MBS and talk to Ryan. ;)

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2022, 03:35:25 AM »
I had thought of that but I hate to bug him. Hoping for some suggestions here so I wont need to call him again. (Though hes a delight to talk with!)

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2022, 04:04:11 AM »
1  Cut it off as low as you can and dremel it out.
2  Mount the stub in a vise and see if it has enough back and forth to snap it off.  Then dremel it out.
3  Mount it securely in a vise.  Cut off the top nub.  Drill down thru the center, then crush it, break it off, and dremel it out.
4  Alternatively mount an end mill in your drill press and mill it out.  Also, substitute an end mill for the dremel in any of the above.
5.  Be creative and come up with your own solution.  What ever works.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2022, 04:08:05 AM »
Hi Bob,
Cut it off as low as you can and grind the rest away with a round stone in a Dremel.  However, before you do that, grind flat sides on the sprue so you can hold the cap it in a vise using the sprue as a handle.  Then clean up and polish the cap with the sprue in place.  Finally cut it off and grind it away.

dave
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Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2022, 06:23:15 AM »
Great suggestions thanks everyone. The Dremel seems to be the way to go.  I hadn't thought of using the sprue as a handle to secure it for doing the cap's detail work first. Use it then loose it.
I think I can do this.
Y'all rock  ;)

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2022, 01:59:59 PM »
Ugly thing and has no place on a pistol ans I would slab side the grip section like a Wogden pistol.
What caliber is the barrel?
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2022, 03:37:32 PM »
Hi Rob- well, it’s called a “grotesque mask” butt cap for good reason 🤣
The barrel is smooth .50 caliber.

Offline kutter

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2022, 03:47:03 PM »
Keep the sprue.
Heat and hammer forge it's length out some more with the extra dia at the top end.
Widen it at that end.

Inlet the cap with sprue/stud on to the butt of the grip.
Hold the cap in place by using a wood screw that enters from underneath the triggerguard inlet and intersects that stud. A pilot hole drilled first will line things up.
Open up the bottom portion of the pilot hole in the stud after drilling.

The taper of the wood screw when turned home will push on the upper portion of the orig pilot hole in the stud and draw it tight into the inlet.

Trigger guard tang will cover that attachment screw.

Yes it's more work than a simple wood screw thru gargoyles open grill,,
but it looks much better than a wood screw planted thru gargoyles open grill too.

Offline David Rase

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2022, 04:00:04 PM »
Keep the sprue.
Heat and hammer forge it's length out some more with the extra dia at the top end.
Widen it at that end.

Inlet the cap with sprue/stud on to the butt of the grip.
Hold the cap in place by using a wood screw that enters from underneath the triggerguard inlet and intersects that stud. A pilot hole drilled first will line things up.
Open up the bottom portion of the pilot hole in the stud after drilling.

The taper of the wood screw when turned home will push on the upper portion of the orig pilot hole in the stud and draw it tight into the inlet.

Trigger guard tang will cover that attachment screw.

Yes it's more work than a simple wood screw thru gargoyles open grill,,
but it looks much better than a wood screw planted thru gargoyles open grill too.
Please show me a picture of a an original grotesque mask buttcap that was mounted this way.   I have seen and use your method on other styles of pistol buttcaps but never on the grotesque mask that Bob is using, always a screw to the best of my knowledge.   
David

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2022, 06:09:22 PM »
Ditto Rase
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Offline Dave B

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2022, 06:26:18 PM »
I would clamp the sprew in the drillpress vice. Then drill out for your screw and you will b⁶e drilling out your sprew from the out side it will just snap off. Clean up with your dremmel.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline kutter

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2022, 10:12:11 PM »
Quote from: David Rase
Please show me a picture of a an original grotesque mask buttcap that was mounted this way.   I have seen and use your method on other styles of pistol buttcaps but never on the grotesque mask that Bob is using, always a screw to the best of my knowledge.   
David

I don't have any pictures of any grotesque mask caps.
I really don't care how all the other ones someone else has seen may have been attached.
Attaching one with a blind system is a classy way to make the fitment.
It shows some thought and extra work, some pride in 'smithing and overall craftsmanship.

It's a common trait on European arms from the last couple of centurys,,likely earlier.
I'm not a historian
But why couldn't some one a few centurys ago have done it too.
Or did they all get an instruction sheet with their Pistol Kits back then telling them to use a wood screw thru the creatures head.

..So just run a steel screw in there and call it classy looking.
Same old, Same old.

..and don't forget to add the Stainless Steel Flash Hole Liner to the bbl.
Just like all those originals had.


FWIW,,and you probably really don't care,,,I recently completed a SM style Flint rifle.
I reshaped the long tang to a tapered shape and then a tear-drop style at the end.

The tang screw  enters from the bottom of the grip through the trigger plate and goes up into the bottom of the tang.
The hole in the tang is a 'blind hole', threaded for the tang bolt which engages about 1/2 way down the tang.

So on the outer surface of the tang, it is clean of any screw head or shank from the tang bolt.
In that tear drop shape at the very end is a small dia wood screw (shop made cap head machine screw actually) in a countersink & down into the wrist.

Likely not the first time anyone has attached things that way, but not the 'normal' way.
Just a bit different, a little inovative and shows some thought and workmanship.
Whats wrong with that.

Same with the butt cap attachment.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2022, 07:29:46 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2022, 10:27:02 PM »
Ugly thing and has no place on a pistol ans I would slab side the grip section like a Wogden pistol.
What caliber is the barrel?
Bob Roller

I would disagree. I've definitely seen the popular silver grotesque mask caps on plenty of English flintlocks with varying degrees of "slab sided" wrists, and it is personally one of my favorite designs on Georgian pistols. For example:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/78/245/pair-of-silver-mounted-james-freeman-flintlock-pistols
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/77/3159/brace-of-samuel-coddington-marked-english-flintlock-pistols
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/77/3160/fine-pair-of-richards-flintlock-pistols-with-ornate-furniture
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/77/388/documented-pair-of-grifin-tow-boxlock-flintlock-belt-pistols
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2022, 12:08:05 AM »
Well I got it done. I just grinded away with my Dremel at the stem for about 20 minutes. Not as hard as I expected. When it was off, I smoothed the stump and then cleaned and beveled all the edges of the cap. I also got the screw hole done at this time since it would have to be done anyway.
Kinda happy with how it came out.







Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2022, 12:21:59 AM »
As my first Supervisor used to say, "If the cat wants to drink buttermilk, let the cat drink buttermilk". I prefer to stay somewhat close to the work of the early gunmakers but I am fine with those that prefer other ways.
Dennis
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2022, 02:59:41 PM »
I use a Dremel cutoff wheel on those. You didn't drill your hole in the right place. It should be centered in the mouth.
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2022, 04:27:59 PM »
Dennis,
Not quite sure what you mean.   Do you mean sticking to early gunsmiths way of working, all hand tools, or did you mean original patterns?

Mike,
I dunno about centering the screw being right or wrong, but this photo below is of a William Bailes pistol, likely from the late 1740's .
Its when he was still in Russel Street, Bloomsbury.   
(Camden Town, London)








I must admit that this grotesque mask was used more on pistols with a bulbous grip, but know Twigg used it a good deal later than my Bailes example!


« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 04:39:17 PM by Pukka Bundook »

Offline kutter

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2022, 04:37:49 PM »
........You didn't drill your hole in the right place. It should be centered in the mouth.

Wouldn't that make him look like Mr Bill..?


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2022, 05:05:35 PM »
The hole is right at the top, no room for a counter sink. It really doesn't matter to me where he puts it.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2022, 05:40:04 PM »
Here's how it looks with a screw in position. I think it will be ok, though I am no expert of course. Thank you for the photo also Puuka. (I don't have many to go by)
I think Mr. Bill would be a hoot, by the way  8)



« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 05:44:34 PM by Bob Gerard »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2022, 12:15:23 AM »
No doubt these represent the picture of the original owner or his girl friends.
Bob Roller

Offline Dave B

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2022, 07:29:23 AM »
I would clamp the sprew in the drillpress vice. Then drill out for your screw and you will b⁶e drilling out your sprew from the out side it will just snap off. Clean up with your dremmel.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Levy

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2022, 06:19:49 PM »
As to how the grotesque mask is attached.  I have worked on archaeologically recovered flintlock pistols from the wreck of the San Jose y Las Animas ca. 1733 that were attached by a screw behind the trigger guard tang.  The pistols were made by T. Probin  and J. Clarkson.  The Clarkson pistol also had CHA. CHURCHILL engraved on the topside of the barrel.  James Levy
James Levy

Offline smart dog

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Re: Sparrow Pistol- a challenge awaits
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2022, 06:34:22 PM »
Hi,
Please let's stop confusing pistol decoration.  The caps using the screw hidden behind the trigger guard also have an end cap that covers over the main screw in the butt holding the main cap in place.  That is only on butt caps mounted with end caps.  These little grotesque butt caps were never fitted that way and use an exposed screw in the mouth as Bob has done.  Do you guys see any flat area for an end cap on that grotesque cap?  That should be enough to tell you that one was not used.

dave 
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