Early PA long rifle by Baker

[rich pierce]

In the magazine, if I got it right, the early rifle they attribute to Baker looks to have a nice cast sideplate mated with a plain buttplate and a guard with a straight grip rail well off the wrist.

[smart dog]

Hi Rich,
Yes, and a massive but short barrel.

dave

[WESTbury]

By the way, I am lucky to have a framed print of The Battle of King's Mountain by DonTroiani that is shown in the magazine article. The picture in the magazine does not do that Troiani print justice by a long shot. I believe that a few prints may be still available.

[smart dog]

Hi Kent,
The show has a reproduction of one of the prints in David Hansen's book on long rifles.  It purports to show a rifleman (Timothy Murphy?) shooting from a tree at a British officer during the fight at Bemis Heights. The problems with the painting is the rifleman has a battalion cartridge box hanging from his side.  No American riflemen used cartridge boxes.  Secondly, there is no documentary evidence that Murphy was even at Saratoga.  His wife's pension petitions mention his service everywhere but Saratoga. And if he shot General Fraser, don't you think she would have mentioned that?

dave

[WESTbury]

Dave,

I read and still have two books on Saratoga, one by Ketchum and the second by Luzader. Ketchum does not mention Murphy at all and Luzader relate a very similar story as you, about Murphy's widow. I've read Ketchum's book twice, it is a long hall, but worth it. How about you?

Another myth about the Rev War bites the dust!

Kent

[blienemann]

Henry's book from 1960 covered so much ground, he presented just a few examples of old records that Scott is now finding and sharing with us, lists of trade rifles and their makers with notes on barrel finishes which really opened my eyes, and the status of some rifles we enjoy back in 1960. Plus some that have not been seen since.
P 13 shows RCA # 52 that Dave mentions - a big rifle that is light and handles well, reminiscent of Oerter's rifles in line and feel. It had an 1830's double throated cock and lock in her then. Compare the tang carving on this rifle now, to what it had in RCA photos!
Bottom of p 15 shows outline of patchbox on an attributed John Noll - Bart Twnshp rifle, and Henry noted the engraving was very worn. At one of my first KRA annual meetings this same rifle was displayed with clean and clear engraving and a $75,000 tag on it. I remembered Henry's note, pointed it out to some of my hosts, and a little while later the rifle was priced at $7,500.
This book introduced me to Leman, Albrights and Henrys, and a few of their records, so I knew where to go looking for more. Also Mattias Roesser's inventory of gunshop and pages from gunsmith ledgers, letters, advertisements and business cards.

I was fortunate to spend a day at his museum next to the Ed Hand House with cases open, to study many fine rifles. Then he took us to dinner and we had a fine time.

This inexpensive book has much to offer if you take a slow read every ten years, and judge what you have learned in that time. Bob

[spgordon]

The historical value of Kauffman's Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle and Kindig's Golden Age, published the same year, as the foundational texts in this field cannot be measured. They established the language in which we still talk, they set the problems that we're still working out, they are the ones who sparked (as Bob's example testifies) so much new research and discoveries.

But it is a very different thing to rely on the information in Kauffman's book--by which I mean the information in the second half of the book that is organized by gunsmith--or to believe that there are still useful nuggets of information in Kauffman's book that later writers have overlooked. Regarding the areas of this field that I spend my time working in--I can't weigh in on other gunsmiths--the information is hopelessly out of date. Here's what he says under Henry Albright: "The relationship, if any, between Andrew Albright and Henry Albright might never be established, but circumstantial evidence points to the fact that Henry was probably the son of Andrew. It is known that sons were frequently apprenticed to, or at least followed, the trade of their father, so it would seem reasonable to assume that there was a father-son relationship between these two." Kaufmann's entry for Andrew Albright is a single line noting that he appeared on a Warwick tax list in 1780. These are not hand-picked examples to make my point. One would rely on the information in Kauffman's extensive discussion of the Henrys at one's peril.

It has been sixty years. We wouldn't go to a 1960 biology textbook to guide us through diseases and therapies. We wouldn't use a 1960 TV GUIDE as a guide to the type of comedy or drama that is entertaining or worth watching. (No Star Trek yet!--let alone Breaking Bad or the Sopranos or Schitt's Creek.) We know so much more now, thanks to writers such as Bob Lienemann. (Kauffman never mentions Christian Oerter.) Kauffman and Kindig are the giants, but by standing on their shoulders we see a lot more than they did. I'd encourage people to read the first half of the book, though with care when he discusses particular gunsmiths, and avoid the second half.

[RAT]

For the Tileston rifle see pages 6-10 of the December 2015 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine. The article was written by John Kolar.

I believe he also wrote an article for Man at Arms for the Gun and Sword Collector magazine... but I don't have that issue.

[WESTbury]

Bob

Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately, I do not subscribe to Muzzle Blasts.

Kent

[spgordon]

I bought a (mostly) complete run of Muzzle Blasts a few years ago from a seller here: I'll scan John Kolar's Tileston article tomorrow & send it to you, Kent. (If anybody else wants it, just let me know.) -- Scott

[WESTbury]

I bought a (mostly) complete run of Muzzle Blasts a few years ago from a seller here: I'll scan John Kolar's Tileston article tomorrow & send it to you, Kent. (If anybody else wants it, just let me know.) -- Scott

Scott,

You are a gentleman and scholar (literally  ).

Kent

[Eric Kettenburg]

A friend took a string of very photos of the Tileston rifle many years ago (and a different owner or two ago) when we were able to really examine it at a KRA show.  It's a fantastic rifle and as Dave mentioned, the iron furniture forgings are so good they almost seem like modern investment castings (which they clearly are not).  I asked the photographer a little while back about sharing the photos so I'm going to **try** to do this the easy way because it's time consuming to try to edit and post them here without sludging everything up.

This is a dropbox link - I've never tried this before so let me know if this doesn't work.  Hopefully anyone who wants can download them.  Possibly the photo taker may chime in and take credit and can add some more commentary on the gun.  It's been disassembled as well right there in the hotel room but no photos of that 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wxgafx6q2t5oo6t/AAC2cqoTO2hqyB2dx_JQKt2fa?dl=0

[Eric Kettenburg]

BTW - and this is important - there is a fowler in Grinslade's book with **identical** carving around the comb (which is quite unique) and I believe the same or similar around the lock/tang as well but I'll have to dig out his book to verify.

[James Rogers]

That Heylin lock is very similar to a Heylin birding piece i had at one time. Definitely a re-used lock off an English gun. Wonderful choice to compliment the quality of this beautiful Tileston rifle. Has anyone made a close copy of this rifle?

[smart dog]

Eric,
Thank you so much for those photos!  They are spectacular and they show the gun was made extremely well and by a real master gunsmith.  I can provide some definitive comments about the lock.  I believe James Rogers mentioned much of the same information about that lock in a thread about this rifle posted some years ago.  It is almost identical to a lock on a Heylin fowler dated to 1767 as James mentioned.  The lock has all the features consistent with British locks from the period 1765-1775.  I can even guess why the sear dropped too low.  I suspect the bridle was fragile and broke allowing the sear screw to drop lower.  The photos below shows the inside of a Heylin lock on the bottom and the outside of the lock (converted to percussion) in the middle.




dave

[rich pierce]

The DropBox worked for me - thanks!

The high quality of the guard and the simplicity of the patchbox finial make me want to speculate that the guard and perhaps buttplate were obtained (not fabricated) by the stocker of this fine rifle.

[Dwshotwell]

That gun is beautiful. Thanks for sharing those pictures.

[blienemann]

I of course agree with Scott's comments on Henry's book, and other early authors' efforts. Kauffman was a curious gentleman who studied, collected, taught and wrote books on a variety of early trades or crafts. His affordable book encouraged me to look further. What I appreciate most from his efforts are the rifles and other items he collected, and his efforts (museum and books) to share what he was discovering with us. I've tried to follow that approach.

The list of makers of western fur trade rifles was especially interesting back then, and seeing that some barrels were blued or browned, but the rest "bright as usual" informed my work at the bench. Those original documents he included showed me that there is where I needed to focus - on the source material. Seeing these photos of originals in different condition than they are today is also very informative. Many have been played with over the years.

He did guess that Henry Albright was the son of Andreas, but that is also misleading, as Henry was the only son who became a gunsmith. The entry of HA in Warwick confused me, as there was a Warwick Township, but I later learned that Warwick was the name of the settlement surrounding the closed Moravian community of Lititz. Henry had married outside the Church, so was living close by when he returned from Ohio.

There is still so much more to learn. Thanks Scott, Eric and others for your work and willingness to share. And for these photos Eric just provided. The effort continues. Bob

[WESTbury]

Eric,

Thanks for posting the photos. I had no problem looking at them.

It is a great looking rifle!

Kent

[mr. no gold]

Yes, thank you Eric for posting these photos of the 'Tommy gun; by Thomas Tileston. I saw the rifle when Dick Zeschke owned it. He exhibited it at the NRA meeting that was held in Phoenix. No one seemed to know much about it then, but glad that we now know a lot more about the maker. It is indeed a grand gun and too bad that we don't have a full length shot or two of it. My observations of the gun at the time was that it was a fine. southern, iron mounted piece. Without knowing the facts as I do now, I would likely still harbor that notion. Hooray for NE guns!
Dick

[backsplash75]

In the magazine, if I got it right, the early rifle they attribute to Baker looks to have a nice cast sideplate mated with a plain buttplate and a guard with a straight grip rail well off the wrist.

ugly quick and dirty splice for the peanut gallery

[WESTbury]

With regard to the Tileston marked rifle.

Why are we so sure that it is a New England produced rifle?

[smart dog]

Hi,
Eric, your memory for detail is incredible.  I pride myself on that same aptitude but you make me look like an amateur.  The guns in Grinslade that you are referring too are NE45 and NE46, both have locks marked Thomas Holbrook.  He was born in 1747 and died in 1810.  The lock panels on both guns are identical to the Tileston rifle and so is the carving around the comb and barrel tang on NE46.  It would be hard to explain that away except for some connection between the rifle and Holbrook.

Kent, the cherry stock, the actual shape of the butt stock, and the decoration around the comb and barrel tang scream New England.  A feature so often found on NE guns is the carving at the end of the barrel tang is like a potted plant at the end of a featureless table.  There is no florid design connecting the lock moldings in with the tang carving that you find so often on PA long rifles and even southern guns of the period. Here is an example, the famous Hawk fowler:
 


dave

[WESTbury]

Kent, the cherry stock, the actual shape of the butt stock, and the decoration around the comb and barrel tang scream New England.  A feature so often found on NE guns is the carving at the end of the barrel tang is like a potted plant at the end of a featureless table.  There is no florid design connecting the lock moldings in with the tang carving that you find so often on PA long rifles and even southern guns of the period. Here is an example, the famous Hawk fowler:
dave

To me the triggerguard and odd patchbox do not look N.E. Also, the relief carving behind the cheek rest is very unusual for a NE Rifle. But, anything is possible. Never say "never".
My NE Rifle was added to The Miller Library by Mark back in 2019, so I am somewhat familiar with them.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=56680.0
Also, I am very suspicious of signed and dated NE Rifles Al Thompson covered that in the article below in paragraph #6.
https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1981-B44-Worcester-County-Gunsmiths-1760-1830.pdf
However, as I do not have access to any published material on this rifle, I am "flying blind".
Kent

[smart dog]

Hi,
I am familiar with NE rifles too and most were made much later than 1773, if that date can be believed for the Tileston rifle.  I also know about Kimball Arms and their engraver "Teff" who forged all kinds of names, dates, and signatures on NE guns.

dave