Doctor, doctor give me a cure!!

[Manynames]

OK, a VERY frustrating day shooting. I have a nice Leman Indian Trade rifle in .42 cal. percussion And I cannot get it to shoot under 2.5" at 50yd.
These are the specs-
40' long barrel made by B.Hoyt. barrel has about 200 rounds thru it AND its been polished using scotchbrite( maroon and white, 200 times each)
1:48 twist
13/16" across flats
using a .417 cast and grouped by weight(this is the last option I just tried, weighing them)
tried charges of 3f of 43gr, 45gr, 47gr, 50gr, 55gr.  5 shot groups, generally no significant variation in groupings from all loads.
patching is strip pillow ticking around .015
lube is 50/50 bear oil and beeswax which I have been using for centuries in my other rifles with excellent results.
all groups shoot from a rest.
Unless I'm missing something, I think all the elements are there, what the ......?
maybe just a "bad day of shooting"??
Doctors, give me a cure!

Rick

[MeliusCreekTrapper]

What do your recovered patches look like?

[MuskratMike]

Could be that forty foot barrel! just kidding on that. Everything looks right, keep playing with powder charges (maybe go down not up in charge) especially if the recovered patches aren't blown.

[Roger B]

I would try some 10 Oz to 12 Oz denim if your ticking patches aren't holding up. If Hoyt rifled the barrel, it should shoot well with the "right" combination.  Some barrels are just persnickity.
Roger B.

[hortonstn]

I agree with roger try a .20 patch with lube

[bob in the woods]

What is the depth of the grooves?   My first inclination would be to try a different /heavier patch material. Also, I think that your 50/50 bear oil beeswax mix could be a little too heavy on the beeswax for the smaller bore, even if it does work in your other guns. I'd go with a heavier patch and lose the wax...[straight bear oil] and see if that improves things

[alacran]

Could be a bad day at the range. Could be you are making sighting errors since the gun is new to you. Each gun requires patience to learn how to shoot it.

[Pukka Bundook]

Scotchbrite wouldn't wear the muzzle would it?

[Mike Brooks]

So what's the deal with the scotchbright in the bore?

[rich pierce]

As noted above, recovered patches are going to tell the story. There’s no sense trying to work up a load with a patch/ball combination that cuts patches. In my experience, powder charge is the last step in working up an accurate load. It’s the final 20%. Within an acceptable range of powder charges, finding the optimal charge is not going to cut groups in half. I know a very successful offhand match and woods walk shooter who shoots different powder charges at different ranges so he can keep his aiming sight picture constant. So, as much difference as 50 grains to 90 grains in a .50 caliber rifle. He knows it will make group size change, but offhand, it works for him. 

A second factor not often talked about is sights. Each of us usually find sights that work better for us.

Does it load smoothly?

[Manynames]

Sorry for late response, we had a power outage last night.
recovered patches are good, no shredding, no holes, no cuts.
the idea of changing my lube might work, I'll try it.
I don't know the depth of rifling.
someone mentioned whats with the Scotchbrite, its used to polish the bore without taking off metal. kind of a poor man's lapping.
I'm also leaning to "a bad day of shooting" idea?
Thanks for responses!

[Mike Brooks]

What made you think it needed lapped?

[Hungry Horse]

 I would start by cutting way back on the Bee’s wax in your lube. It doesn’t handle heat, and can create problems. Crusty spots at the breach end of the barrel are a dead giveaway. Is that why you are using the Scotch-bright?

Hungry Horse

[Bull Shannon]

What is the depth of the grooves?   My first inclination would be to try a different /heavier patch material. Also, I think that your 50/50 bear oil beeswax mix could be a little too heavy on the beeswax for the smaller bore, even if it does work in your other guns. I'd go with a heavier patch and lose the wax...[straight bear oil] and see if that improves things

My thoughts as well. My beeswax and olive oil patch lube was about a 5 to one or soft enough to just smear onto the patch. Lube one side only of the patch material and cut at the muzzle.

[Keith Zimmerman]

Try a .020 spit patch.

[Pukka Bundook]

I still think the scotchbrite may have rounded things off a bit . it does remove metal

[ScottNE]

What is the depth of the grooves?   My first inclination would be to try a different /heavier patch material. Also, I think that your 50/50 bear oil beeswax mix could be a little too heavy on the beeswax for the smaller bore, even if it does work in your other guns. I'd go with a heavier patch and lose the wax...[straight bear oil] and see if that improves things

My thoughts as well. My beeswax and olive oil patch lube was about a 5 to one or soft enough to just smear onto the patch. Lube one side only of the patch material and cut at the muzzle.

I’ve always lubed just one side of the patch based on what I was told when I started my flintlock journey, but recently I saw some pretty impressive accuracy from a guy who stressed lubing both sides (to the extent that the ball itself gets good and greasy) and using what looked to me like an oversized precut patch. Said his load was based on his study of period sources. What are your thoughts on the advantage of lubing one side only?

[smylee grouch]

Is there a Right way? Lots of folks use different lubes and procedures to load that are shooting good groups. I prefer my 20+ thousands denim patches to be saturated clear through with bear oil or Hoppes #9. This has worked  well for me since the late 60s early 70s. Hope I'm not doing it wrong. 

[ScottNE]

Is there a Right way? Lots of folks use different lubes and procedures to load that are shooting good groups. I prefer my 20+ thousands denim patches to be saturated clear through with bear oil or Hoppes #9. This has worked  well for me since the late 60s early 70s. Hope I'm not doing it wrong. 

I wouldn’t say there’s a right or wrong way, but it’s always interesting to see very different loading procedures used with good results, despite one load working well for some and not others. I feel like it’s often shrugged off as inexplicable — no two barrels are alike, etc — but then again, two Rice barrels manufactured to the same specs for example, SHOULD be alike, right? I guess it’s the never ending hunt for the “right way” that yields top accuracy, despite there NOT being a right way, in the real world. “Sisyphean” comes to mind .

I also haven’t been able to shoot for most of this year due to work and an ongoing renovation and cross-country move, so as I sit and plot the load variations I’d like to try I live vicariously through the shooting/experimenting of others.

[smylee grouch]

I agree ScottNE. Lotts of different ways to skin a cat so to say, something akin to whats the best patch lube, way to clean, powder type, brand and granulation, etc. 

[Jeff Murray]

You did not mention range setup or conditions while shooting.  Wind, sun angle and brightness can affect your results.  I have found that sight hoods help with sight picture when shooting on a sunny day unless you are under a roof for shade.  It also does not take much of a cross breeze to move the ball a half inch or more, particularly if your muzzle velocity is in the moderate range.  The charge range you are using should be giving you a muzzle velocity in the 2000 feet per second range.  At 50 yards a 5 mile per hour wind could move the ball an inch +/-.  I have also found shooting off of a sandbag rest to give the best results while sighting in.  It helps understand what the rifle will do versus what you can do with the rifle.  good luck.

[577SXS]

I agree with the cutting back on beeswax in the lube. I never had issues with grouping until someone gave me a big block of beeswax for making lube. It works good on cast bullets for cartridge guns but is horrible in a muzzle loader with patched balls. Beeswax is sticky and I found patches were sticking to the balls and causing flyers. I had patches close to target at fifty yards which is what really showed me they were hanging on to the balls. A patch should come off the ball as soon as it leaves the muzzle. If you want to use a wax to stiffen a lube use paraffin as it's not sticky.

[smylee grouch]

A breeze will affect your point of impact but a breeze at the muzzle will affect it more than one at 50 yds even though the ball will be moving slower at 50. The breeze at the muzzle can move the ball which gets further off the mark once it gets to 50. Just MHO.

[Daryl]

Is there a Right way? Lots of folks use different lubes and procedures to load that are shooting good groups. I prefer my 20+ thousands denim patches to be saturated clear through with bear oil or Hoppes #9. This has worked  well for me since the late 60s early 70s. Hope I'm not doing it wrong. 

Good advice, imho.