Author Topic: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility  (Read 3863 times)

Offline Steeltrap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 745
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2024, 07:20:32 PM »
Jerky is great!!  I make a lot myself.

I've always used 2F in my 50 cal. It's always given me nice consistent groups.  Here's a target to consider....my little sister (lives near Gettysburg Pa) took this just last week. A "small" 8 PT


Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2024, 08:11:54 PM »
Looks like a 4 poi t to me. ;)
Bit then, I am North of the 49th.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7865
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2024, 08:41:01 PM »
A 17-18 inch 4x4  ;) ;D

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2408
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2024, 10:31:20 PM »
Even if you get this gun up and running where you want it, you can still get a larger bore in the future....

I have a .62 and a .73.  Love them both.  Not shot anything with the .62 yet, however the .73 round ball I have taken a deer and a bear with, and both only went a few yards with the ball passing through.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline recurve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2024, 07:03:07 AM »




round ball 50 100 yrds green mtn barrel .50  100 yrd 2 high then adjusted sights

Online smokinbuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2024, 04:41:21 PM »
Huckleberry,
If you want a BIG BORE I have an English style percussion with  .72 caliber rifled Oregon Barrel available.
Mark

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2024, 08:09:28 PM »
.72 is a very good bore size for big game. 1/2 way between 14 and 11 bore.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Huckleberry

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2024, 02:12:21 AM »


I had an opportunity today to work on a 100 yard load.  Using a Woodsrunner 50 cal which is not the same rifle that I started this post with.  I could not get any kind of a group with the 250 grain Lee REAl but did end up getting a decent group with pa conicals (I washed the gunk off of them) patched with thin linen.  85 grain 2f goex (new stuff).  This will be my deer hunting setup.

Offline Steeltrap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 745
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2024, 07:23:36 PM »


I had an opportunity today to work on a 100 yard load.  Using a Woodsrunner 50 cal which is not the same rifle that I started this post with.  I could not get any kind of a group with the 250 grain Lee REAl but did end up getting a decent group with pa conicals (I washed the gunk off of them) patched with thin linen.  85 grain 2f goex (new stuff).  This will be my deer hunting setup.

I've not had success with the Lee Real bullet either. In my 50 cal I hunt with nothing but the Hornady Pa Conical...with the lube wiped off....I leave on a skim and that's plenty.

With my 54 cal I'm using Minie hollow base bullets lubed with SPG. I put a slight flare on the Minie so it will stay put against the powder.

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2024, 11:50:10 PM »
The REAL bullets, both 200gr. and 220gr. shot well in my .45 GM bl. with 60" twist with around 70gr. 3F IIRC.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Steeltrap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 745
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2024, 02:28:27 PM »
The REAL bullets, both 200gr. and 220gr. shot well in my .45 GM bl. with 60" twist with around 70gr. 3F IIRC.

Good to know. I'm still in load development with my 45 cal. So far I've just used FF powder, but the more I read FFF seems to be the go to powder for a 45 cal. This is my first 45 cal rifle.

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2024, 07:01:52 PM »
I tried them as a local chap tested the Lee bullet in his .45 on our big mule deer. He found it killed no better, nor faster than a round ball,
but of course, easier to load in the winter time.
SPG or Lyman's BP Gold(which I used) works well in the grooves. Multiple accurate shots can be made without having to wipe. As noted, I used
70gr. of 3F, but in retrospect, might have been 80gr. They shot to the RB's sights at 50yards, that part I remember exactly.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline hudson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2024, 04:51:58 PM »
Huckleberry, the holes in your target appear to show tipping. Thinking with that weight or length of the bullet it needs a faster twist or more velocity.

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2024, 08:29:34 PM »
I agree with hudson. Probably doesn't matter with deer and the apparent accuracy is good, but with elk or moose, the bullets will not follow a straight line path through the animal as intended.
This is vital, as we saw poor bullet performance in 48" twist TC barrels on moose. The bullets did not follow a straight line through the critter and sometimes made 90 degree direction
change at impact. It is frustrating to shoot for a double lung, with perfect impact location, only to have the bullet turn on impact and miss the lungs completely, following the skin around the belly, or turning 85 degrees and entering into the guts.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Huckleberry

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2024, 02:36:32 AM »
They look “straight” to me.  I have seen “keyholed” with maxi which don’t look anything like this target.

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2024, 05:25:51 AM »
The paper tells the story. They look round, but sharp cut on one side, tear on the other, shows slight tipping
which means one of two things. Instability, or haven't "gone to sleep yet".
When shooting slugs out of a round ball twist, instability is the culprit 10 times out of 10.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9896
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2024, 10:23:34 PM »
Why are you bothering with the “REAL” bullet? They jack up pressure. Don’t shoot as flat at normal hunting ranges. Will be less accurate unless used in a bullet barrel with a fast twist. At that weight any increase in penetration will be marginal (you need at least 350 grain in a 50 and 450 in better. They are not safe since any of these “naked” bullets, from the Minie to present day are known come away from the powder charge. They have no real advantage in killing power at ML hunting ranges and a 250 gr 50 has no longe range capability either. If they were so great people would have abandoned the RB by 1850. But they did not. Even W.W. Greener in “The Gun and Its Development”  tells us that the bulleted MLs were not good came guns. But when the TC “Hawken” came along and the people that did not know any better, like the slick paper gun writers, started telling people the RB was useless (TC was buying advertising for the Maxi-Ball after all THATS key). And people, ignorant of or ignoring history, believed them.
Here is another little tid-bit. It was found as early as the Crimean War (the first combat use of the Minie Ball type) that in slow twists elongated projectiles tended to not track straight when striking flesh. If you want to shoot bullets in a ML you need at least a 30-36” twist for good accuracy.
And of course the gun writers wailed about the lack of “energy” in the RB. Here is a fact. Energy is just a number. While it has some meaning in modern HV arms with jacketed bullets that must expand to do anything, its useless in black powder arms. Be it a 45-70 with 400 gr bullet (compare it to a 243 and then ask which will work better on something large and angry) or a muzzle loading rifle. At BP velocities you need a bullet of suitable caliber with sufficient penetration. Since I have only rarely seem less than about 30” of penetration for a RB this is not a factor unless you are into “Texas heart shots” and then only if a very heavy bone is encountered and the ball is pure lead.
In reality there is no upside to these unless you are standing in line shooting as fast as possible at another line of people trying to kill you. Military rifles before about 1865 had no viable use to the civilian. The brass suppository guns changed this.
BTW, I have shot quite a number of various game animals with Rbs, BPCRs, “moderns” of various calibers. And witnessed some more guiding hunters. SHOT PLACEMENT IT KING. AND as a matter of fact the 54 RB at 40 yards with 90-100 gr of powder is better on elk than a 1980s 180 gr 300 Weatherby factory load at 40 yards since it will PENETRATE BETTER. This is just fact based on experience. But few “gun writers” would know this and the people selling conical bullet are not going to tell you this either. I have NEVER seen or shot an animal with a proper hit with a RB that was not a one shot kill. Be it antelope, either species of deer, Elk or Black Bear. People using these things are one of my pet peeves (can you tell?) as a ML shooter since the 1960s. Its just silliness foisted on the unknowing. The downsides from both historical and modern experience is not mentioned. But it was known and published at least as far back as 1860. AND hardened round balls were universally used for heavy game into the 1870s if not later in Africa and India. For good reason. Read Sir Samuel Baker or even John Taylor’s “Pondoro” specifically the chapter “More Elephant Stories”.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline hudson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2024, 08:16:45 PM »
Dphariss I totally agree, after looking at recovered balls from deer. It really scares me thinking of the pressure generated in a TC with maxie-balls especially after un breaching a couple.

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2024, 08:24:42 PM »
Why are you bothering with the “REAL” bullet?  They have no real advantage in killing power at ML hunting ranges and a 250 gr 50 has no longe range capability either. It was found as early as the Crimean War (the first combat use of the Minie Ball type) that in slow twists elongated projectiles tended to not track straight when striking flesh("instead, they coursed through the soft parts of the body, shirking the bones and making neat wounds". If you want to shoot bullets in a ML you need at least a 30-36” twist for good accuracy.
 The downsides from both historical and modern experience is not mentioned. But it was known and published at least as far back as 1860. AND hardened round balls were universally used for heavy game into the 1870s if not later in Africa and India. For good reason. Read Sir Samuel Baker or even John Taylor’s “Pondoro” specifically the chapter “More Elephant Stories”.


This pretty much sums it up, along with what I have not copied.

As noted, my local friend found the REAL bullets did not kill deer any better than the .445" round balls he had used before & had then returned to using.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Huckleberry

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2024, 10:08:02 PM »
Thanks for the responses.  Different perspectives make for better discussions.  One point to consider, .50 cal with RB is not legal for elk in CO.  This point was the basis for my endeavor in getting a conical to group. 

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15646
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #45 on: Today at 01:58:20 AM »
If you had a .50 cal. Lyman rifle with 32" or 28" rate of twist, I would suggest a short conical would likely work perfectly for you on Elk.
I would suggest that most conicals in .50 are not suitable in a GM round ball twist barrel.
Instability upon & after impact is my reason. A bullet that punches a perfectly round hole is not necessarily stable after impact. That is where
rate of twist becomes paramount. If you cannot trust the bullet travel in a straight line after impact, it should not be used.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9896
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #46 on: Today at 06:58:42 PM »
Dang is hit the wrong key and blew away a post.
Anyway.
I do not consider a 50 caliber ML a good choice for elk. But given a good opportunity and a nice broad side shot I would not  hesitate. But I am confidant I could place the shot and I would not  take it unless i was sure of that.
Shooting big game with a bulleted ML that only launches a bullet bullet of 300 grains (in 50 call) or so is silly. IMO in a 50 you need a blunt nosed bullet of 400 grains or so. I know this works and then you need 90-100 gr of powder to drive it. And its gonna kick. Conicals of any sort loaded to give a decent hunt trajectory will eat steel nipples at an appalling rate due to the high pressure. They will start blowing the hammer back to some noticeable extent in as little as 20 rounds. To paraphrase Matthew Quigley in the movie “I said I didn’t have any use for them not that I didn’t know how”.
But as I may have said before I consider the previous and current crop of “naked” bullets for ML silly in the hunting context.. Yes I have shoot 500 gr bullets in a special built bullet ML. But it was not intended for hunting. And I have played around with cloth patches “picket” bullets in a 40 cal 48” twisr ML. These, not matter what you might think after reading Ned Roberts are a PITA and are totally impractical off a rifle range. Too long to relate here.
Then we have the “naked” bullets grip on the bore which is not great. I had a Guild member call me a few days ago concerning someone with was using a ML horse back and could not keep the bullets on the powder. I told him that he never would and this they are really prone to producing bore obstructions. So he needed to use a PRB. Does not ANYONE wonder why the US Cavalry never had a Minie Ball Carbine? It was because ANY of the carbines not breech loading tened to unload themselves in a few miles with loaded with the military ammo of the time, be it ball or bullet. Its why the Spencer, Sharps and other such things were popular for cavalry use in the Civil War. You could carry them loaded.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine