Author Topic: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility  (Read 4817 times)

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2024, 07:20:32 PM »
Jerky is great!!  I make a lot myself.

I've always used 2F in my 50 cal. It's always given me nice consistent groups.  Here's a target to consider....my little sister (lives near Gettysburg Pa) took this just last week. A "small" 8 PT


Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2024, 08:11:54 PM »
Looks like a 4 poi t to me. ;)
Bit then, I am North of the 49th.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2024, 08:41:01 PM »
A 17-18 inch 4x4  ;) ;D

Offline snapper

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2024, 10:31:20 PM »
Even if you get this gun up and running where you want it, you can still get a larger bore in the future....

I have a .62 and a .73.  Love them both.  Not shot anything with the .62 yet, however the .73 round ball I have taken a deer and a bear with, and both only went a few yards with the ball passing through.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline recurve

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2024, 07:03:07 AM »




round ball 50 100 yrds green mtn barrel .50  100 yrd 2 high then adjusted sights

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2024, 04:41:21 PM »
Huckleberry,
If you want a BIG BORE I have an English style percussion with  .72 caliber rifled Oregon Barrel available.
Mark

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2024, 08:09:28 PM »
.72 is a very good bore size for big game. 1/2 way between 14 and 11 bore.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Huckleberry

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2024, 02:12:21 AM »


I had an opportunity today to work on a 100 yard load.  Using a Woodsrunner 50 cal which is not the same rifle that I started this post with.  I could not get any kind of a group with the 250 grain Lee REAl but did end up getting a decent group with pa conicals (I washed the gunk off of them) patched with thin linen.  85 grain 2f goex (new stuff).  This will be my deer hunting setup.

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2024, 07:23:36 PM »


I had an opportunity today to work on a 100 yard load.  Using a Woodsrunner 50 cal which is not the same rifle that I started this post with.  I could not get any kind of a group with the 250 grain Lee REAl but did end up getting a decent group with pa conicals (I washed the gunk off of them) patched with thin linen.  85 grain 2f goex (new stuff).  This will be my deer hunting setup.

I've not had success with the Lee Real bullet either. In my 50 cal I hunt with nothing but the Hornady Pa Conical...with the lube wiped off....I leave on a skim and that's plenty.

With my 54 cal I'm using Minie hollow base bullets lubed with SPG. I put a slight flare on the Minie so it will stay put against the powder.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2024, 11:50:10 PM »
The REAL bullets, both 200gr. and 220gr. shot well in my .45 GM bl. with 60" twist with around 70gr. 3F IIRC.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2024, 02:28:27 PM »
The REAL bullets, both 200gr. and 220gr. shot well in my .45 GM bl. with 60" twist with around 70gr. 3F IIRC.

Good to know. I'm still in load development with my 45 cal. So far I've just used FF powder, but the more I read FFF seems to be the go to powder for a 45 cal. This is my first 45 cal rifle.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2024, 07:01:52 PM »
I tried them as a local chap tested the Lee bullet in his .45 on our big mule deer. He found it killed no better, nor faster than a round ball,
but of course, easier to load in the winter time.
SPG or Lyman's BP Gold(which I used) works well in the grooves. Multiple accurate shots can be made without having to wipe. As noted, I used
70gr. of 3F, but in retrospect, might have been 80gr. They shot to the RB's sights at 50yards, that part I remember exactly.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline hudson

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2024, 04:51:58 PM »
Huckleberry, the holes in your target appear to show tipping. Thinking with that weight or length of the bullet it needs a faster twist or more velocity.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2024, 08:29:34 PM »
I agree with hudson. Probably doesn't matter with deer and the apparent accuracy is good, but with elk or moose, the bullets will not follow a straight line path through the animal as intended.
This is vital, as we saw poor bullet performance in 48" twist TC barrels on moose. The bullets did not follow a straight line through the critter and sometimes made 90 degree direction
change at impact. It is frustrating to shoot for a double lung, with perfect impact location, only to have the bullet turn on impact and miss the lungs completely, following the skin around the belly, or turning 85 degrees and entering into the guts.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Huckleberry

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2024, 02:36:32 AM »
They look “straight” to me.  I have seen “keyholed” with maxi which don’t look anything like this target.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2024, 05:25:51 AM »
The paper tells the story. They look round, but sharp cut on one side, tear on the other, shows slight tipping
which means one of two things. Instability, or haven't "gone to sleep yet".
When shooting slugs out of a round ball twist, instability is the culprit 10 times out of 10.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2024, 10:23:34 PM »
Why are you bothering with the “REAL” bullet? They jack up pressure. Don’t shoot as flat at normal hunting ranges. Will be less accurate unless used in a bullet barrel with a fast twist. At that weight any increase in penetration will be marginal (you need at least 350 grain in a 50 and 450 in better. They are not safe since any of these “naked” bullets, from the Minie to present day are known come away from the powder charge. They have no real advantage in killing power at ML hunting ranges and a 250 gr 50 has no longe range capability either. If they were so great people would have abandoned the RB by 1850. But they did not. Even W.W. Greener in “The Gun and Its Development”  tells us that the bulleted MLs were not good came guns. But when the TC “Hawken” came along and the people that did not know any better, like the slick paper gun writers, started telling people the RB was useless (TC was buying advertising for the Maxi-Ball after all THATS key). And people, ignorant of or ignoring history, believed them.
Here is another little tid-bit. It was found as early as the Crimean War (the first combat use of the Minie Ball type) that in slow twists elongated projectiles tended to not track straight when striking flesh. If you want to shoot bullets in a ML you need at least a 30-36” twist for good accuracy.
And of course the gun writers wailed about the lack of “energy” in the RB. Here is a fact. Energy is just a number. While it has some meaning in modern HV arms with jacketed bullets that must expand to do anything, its useless in black powder arms. Be it a 45-70 with 400 gr bullet (compare it to a 243 and then ask which will work better on something large and angry) or a muzzle loading rifle. At BP velocities you need a bullet of suitable caliber with sufficient penetration. Since I have only rarely seem less than about 30” of penetration for a RB this is not a factor unless you are into “Texas heart shots” and then only if a very heavy bone is encountered and the ball is pure lead.
In reality there is no upside to these unless you are standing in line shooting as fast as possible at another line of people trying to kill you. Military rifles before about 1865 had no viable use to the civilian. The brass suppository guns changed this.
BTW, I have shot quite a number of various game animals with Rbs, BPCRs, “moderns” of various calibers. And witnessed some more guiding hunters. SHOT PLACEMENT IT KING. AND as a matter of fact the 54 RB at 40 yards with 90-100 gr of powder is better on elk than a 1980s 180 gr 300 Weatherby factory load at 40 yards since it will PENETRATE BETTER. This is just fact based on experience. But few “gun writers” would know this and the people selling conical bullet are not going to tell you this either. I have NEVER seen or shot an animal with a proper hit with a RB that was not a one shot kill. Be it antelope, either species of deer, Elk or Black Bear. People using these things are one of my pet peeves (can you tell?) as a ML shooter since the 1960s. Its just silliness foisted on the unknowing. The downsides from both historical and modern experience is not mentioned. But it was known and published at least as far back as 1860. AND hardened round balls were universally used for heavy game into the 1870s if not later in Africa and India. For good reason. Read Sir Samuel Baker or even John Taylor’s “Pondoro” specifically the chapter “More Elephant Stories”.
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Offline hudson

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2024, 08:16:45 PM »
Dphariss I totally agree, after looking at recovered balls from deer. It really scares me thinking of the pressure generated in a TC with maxie-balls especially after un breaching a couple.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2024, 08:24:42 PM »
Why are you bothering with the “REAL” bullet?  They have no real advantage in killing power at ML hunting ranges and a 250 gr 50 has no longe range capability either. It was found as early as the Crimean War (the first combat use of the Minie Ball type) that in slow twists elongated projectiles tended to not track straight when striking flesh("instead, they coursed through the soft parts of the body, shirking the bones and making neat wounds". If you want to shoot bullets in a ML you need at least a 30-36” twist for good accuracy.
 The downsides from both historical and modern experience is not mentioned. But it was known and published at least as far back as 1860. AND hardened round balls were universally used for heavy game into the 1870s if not later in Africa and India. For good reason. Read Sir Samuel Baker or even John Taylor’s “Pondoro” specifically the chapter “More Elephant Stories”.


This pretty much sums it up, along with what I have not copied.

As noted, my local friend found the REAL bullets did not kill deer any better than the .445" round balls he had used before & had then returned to using.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Huckleberry

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2024, 10:08:02 PM »
Thanks for the responses.  Different perspectives make for better discussions.  One point to consider, .50 cal with RB is not legal for elk in CO.  This point was the basis for my endeavor in getting a conical to group. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2024, 01:58:20 AM »
If you had a .50 cal. Lyman rifle with 32" or 28" rate of twist, I would suggest a short conical would likely work perfectly for you on Elk.
I would suggest that most conicals in .50 are not suitable in a GM round ball twist barrel.
Instability upon & after impact is my reason. A bullet that punches a perfectly round hole is not necessarily stable after impact. That is where
rate of twist becomes paramount. If you cannot trust the bullet travel in a straight line after impact, it should not be used.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2024, 06:58:42 PM »
Dang is hit the wrong key and blew away a post.
Anyway.
I do not consider a 50 caliber ML a good choice for elk. But given a good opportunity and a nice broad side shot I would not  hesitate. But I am confidant I could place the shot and I would not  take it unless i was sure of that.
Shooting big game with a bulleted ML that only launches a bullet bullet of 300 grains (in 50 call) or so is silly. IMO in a 50 you need a blunt nosed bullet of 400 grains or so. I know this works and then you need 90-100 gr of powder to drive it. And its gonna kick. Conicals of any sort loaded to give a decent hunt trajectory will eat steel nipples at an appalling rate due to the high pressure. They will start blowing the hammer back to some noticeable extent in as little as 20 rounds. To paraphrase Matthew Quigley in the movie “I said I didn’t have any use for them not that I didn’t know how”.
But as I may have said before I consider the previous and current crop of “naked” bullets for ML silly in the hunting context.. Yes I have shoot 500 gr bullets in a special built bullet ML. But it was not intended for hunting. And I have played around with cloth patches “picket” bullets in a 40 cal 48” twisr ML. These, not matter what you might think after reading Ned Roberts are a PITA and are totally impractical off a rifle range. Too long to relate here.
Then we have the “naked” bullets grip on the bore which is not great. I had a Guild member call me a few days ago concerning someone with was using a ML horse back and could not keep the bullets on the powder. I told him that he never would and this they are really prone to producing bore obstructions. So he needed to use a PRB. Does not ANYONE wonder why the US Cavalry never had a Minie Ball Carbine? It was because ANY of the carbines not breech loading tened to unload themselves in a few miles with loaded with the military ammo of the time, be it ball or bullet. Its why the Spencer, Sharps and other such things were popular for cavalry use in the Civil War. You could carry them loaded.
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Offline alacran

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2024, 02:16:23 PM »
Everything that Dan says is spot on. Learned this through experience.
I was given a GMT long range hunter barrel in .50 cal. It had a 1 in 28 twist barrel. I experimented with saboted bullets. It was a waste of time. They never shot worth a hoot at 100 yards. On top of that they are 45 cal. bullets.
About that time, Black belt bullets had come out. Now they are called Powerbelt bullets.
the 350 grain bullets performed very well at 100 yards on paper with 110 grains of 2f Goex.
This was a drop in barrel for a TC. Frankly I would rather shoot a 1903 A3 than that combination. The recoil was pretty bad in this light rifle. It wasn't horrible offhand , but you have to work up loads of a bench.
Did not shoot any big game with it, just a couple of Javelinas. They really aren't any test for penetration. I gave that rifle away.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2024, 07:57:42 PM »
 I built a junk box tradegun for an old friend who is now hunting the clouds where it’s alway season, and you never miss. The tradegun was 20 gauge and had an old recycled shotgun barrel that was about 28 inches long, and weighed about six pounds. He said he wanted to hunt with it, and I assumed he was talking about bird hunting. He called me and asked what I would consider a maximum load for the tradegun and I once again assumed he was talking about bird hunting, and told him about 70 grains of 2F. Thank goodness he bumped it up, because he was going to Idaho to hunt elk. He called me about a week later from Idaho jubilant that he had killed an elk with his tradegun with one shot, at eighty yards, and flipped the elk upside down, and it was dead by the time he reloaded. He did apologize about not taking my advice and upping the charge to eighty grains of 2F. The term shoot small, miss small, comes to mind.

Hungry Horse

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2024, 10:13:35 PM »
There is another factor with heavy recoil and reduced velocity or for that matter with almost any firearm. If you fail to shoulder/cheek the rifle consistently you will have fliers. The heavier the recoil and the longer the barrel time the worse this may be. With some BP arms I own it can be surprisingly large at extended ranges.
Velocity: Its the key to trajectory. RBs have dismal ballistic coefficients but high, for BP velocity potential. Short/light for caliber conicals/cylindricals are little better. Which means they don’t shoot as flat since its hard to get the velocity as high. A 50-54 caliber round ball driven at 1800 fps/1900 fps will shoot flat enough for a center hold on a deer from muzzle to about 120 yards. IF its sighted for best trajectory. Which means about 1” high at 100. ANd many modern ballistics apps/programs seem to get a little wonky when the BC starts with a .0. But its possible to test this at the range. In explanation, pardon me if you know this already. A deer is going have a broadside kill zone 6-8 inches high. SO the ball should not be more than 3.5/4” high or low for a “point blank” range. Point blank being no offset hold for trajectory needed. Past 120 yards the ball has lost enough velocity that its falling pretty fast. So shooting past 120 yards on game is not good. Unless you are VERY confidant on you skill and the rifle and you KNOW THE RANGE. Where I live out in the big open with nothing but grass this can cause real issues. Depending on the light on the animal it can cause a 140-150 yard shot to look like 100. So after and irritating incident with a mule deer buck I, which I paced off after he left. He was embarrassingly farther out than I had eye ball ranged, I bought a good 1000 yard or a little more range finder. 
For hunting you need basically three things, sufficient velocity for a long “point blank”, sufficient accuracy to assure the spot aimed for is hit and finally adequate penetration. With the sighting generally used, the long lock time (flintlocks are extreme in this case, no millisecond lock times here) and the trajectory shooting much past 100 yards can be risky. So the one advantage of the elongated bullet, penetration at greater distances, is pretty well negated anyway. Unless you have a range finder and a sight like you would find on a long range ML target rifle. These things were all pretty well known by 1860. But humans continue to ignore history or have simply not thought about or studied it and not just in firearms usage. Failing to do this or have enough experience in some cases, result in mistakes from long ago being repeated with the same result. And I have shot a number of animals up to Buffalo with elongated bullets. For example, a soft alloy 500 gr PP 45 cal will almost shoot through a buffalo bull end to end. A soft 400 gr 44 will cut off a limb(s) in a pine tree, hit the deer tumbling end for end and still make 18-20” of penetration and almost exit at the front (it had been wounded by a hunting companion. I have shot critters with about every projectile type imaginable and one you would not think of. They all work fine. The RB is a very good hunting projectile so long as its properly sized for the game at hand. Shooting Elk with a .315 RB probably not a good idea unless its close range head shot from the side. Nope never did that.

 
Then there is the “jump the string” thing the bow hunter talk about. I was watching a video featuring a guy that was a PhD that had studied deer basically his entire career and taught it in college till he retired. He was talking about their color vision, never wear white or blue, its bad. AND how they can run through thick woods etc full speed and not hit things. Besides having the ability to see everything except about a 60 degree arch behind their head. They have about 4 times the processing speed for movement as a human. So things to them move in what would be slow motion to us. As a result I have had at least 2 deer react to the pan smoke on my flintlock causing and “off” shot (high) and in one case no deer. He thinks that the deer that jump the string with bow hunters actually react to the MOVEMENT of the arrow/bow. This for some reason appeared on youtube as I was watching it on my TV. I think its a “Deer IQ” series. Should have subscribed I guess.
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