1728? charleville musket I own

[ntqlvr1948]

Hello...I'm new to the site. I have an unusual musket that I think is a 1728 late Charleville. Not sure. I have the book by Moller and I can't find one like it. Barrel length is 46 and 3/4 inch. Lock is 7 and 3/8ths long. The stock style is consistent with a 1717 or 28. The trigger guard has a ring forward  like the later guns like the 1763's but not quite the same. And the last barrel band has a 5 inch extension on the bottom to guide the iron ramrod. I have not seen another like it. Can anyone be  of some help identifying?
thanks
Gene




forum photo

[FALout]

Interesting piece, I’m sure someone here knows something about that rifle.

[WESTbury]

See George Neumann's Battle Weapons page 125 for starters.

More photos may help. Barrel proofs if any, etc.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd start looking into French rampart guns for a start.  Never saw anything like that forward barrel  band.

[ntqlvr1948]

Thanks...there are two very small marks on the barrel...one looks like a fleur di lis

[Hungry Horse]

 The lock on that musket looks like one a friend owns, except his has a brass pan. The plate on his is marked  Maubeuge, and it has a gooseneck cock as well. I think the brass pan idea was pioneered by the armory at Maubeuge quite early and didn’t get used by the other French armories until 1777. But obviously they were using the same general shape.

Hungry Horse

[WESTbury]

Note the front barrel band on this musket. Dead-ringer for that on your musket. PG 125 George Neumann Battle Weapons of the American Revolution.

[rich pierce]

The above gun’s tang carving resembles some of Fainot’s work.

[ntqlvr1948]

Thanks for the replies. The barrel band on that gun is the same as mine alright.

[ntqlvr1948]

From the help I got here I have to guess that my gun is an American assembled musket from parts of earlier guns. And done very well.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I believe so as well, and if so, I think it's a lot more interesting than simply a 'standard' straight French infantry musket.

[backsplash75]

I'd start looking into French rampart guns for a start.  Never saw anything like that forward barrel  band.

Bore would be in the .75-80 cal range if so, what is that measurement? Lockplate OAL puts it in rampart lock range as 1728/46 musket locks are < 7"s. Likely a composite musket as rampart guns didn't have sling swivels, is there a sling ring on the middle band? The ring on the triggerguard is not typical. Lots of parts bin specials in the late 18thc and early federal period here. More pics and measurements of bore, buttplate tang and triggerguard OAL would be helpful.

[ntqlvr1948]

I measured the bore and it is about 80 caliber. Enclosed are more pics of the barrel bands. The middle band has a square hole which may have held a swivel

[WESTbury]

I believe so as well, and if so, I think it's a lot more interesting than simply a 'standard' straight French infantry musket.

Well said, I agree 100%. You are lucky to have this musket. Don't mess with it, clean it, etc, etc.

Hopefully, you have a nice fireplace to hang this over!

[backsplash75]

Bit of a head scratcher. The additional pics are helpful. The square hole in the middle band is usually for a rectangular retaining spring that isn't present (no inlet for same either), I suspect that this band is from a 1754 or later musket but there should be a swivel loop if so- 28/46 middle bands lacked this spring. Swivel loops on the 28/46 guns were on the middle band and held a round ring. Large bore is consistent with a rampart gun. Most likely a rampart gun that was fitted with the band or a restock/composite with mostly rampart parts. As far as I know there are no known complete unadulterated regulation 28/46 rampart guns with all the bands so we are groping in the dark a bit.

[ntqlvr1948]

Thanks fellas, I bought it about 15 years ago from a guy in New York or Connecticut, I can't remember. He was getting guns from an elderly collector who had a large collection. He would send me pics with nice reasonable prices so I would get them. I got this one, and 2 second model brown bess and a very nice early sea service musket, and one 1766 Charleville musket.
Gene

[WESTbury]

Thanks fellas, I bought it about 15 years ago from a guy in New York or Connecticut, I can't remember. He was getting guns from an elderly collector who had a large collection.
Gene

Was Paul Ambrose involved? He sold a lot of George Neumann's collection before and after the "Neumann Auction" at a NEAAS Show in East Hartford. That was a fun auction, George had many of his best pieces there.

[ntqlvr1948]

I did buy 2 second model ex Newman guns about 19 years ago from Ambrose. Those are the only two guns that I have from him now. The other guns I bought from the other guy mentioned, whom I lost track of, and other dealers.

[WESTbury]

I did buy 2 second model ex Newman guns about 19 years ago from Ambrose. Those are the only two guns that I have from him now. The other guns I bought from the other guy mentioned, whom I lost track of, and other dealers.

I visited Paul's shop every once in a while when I was down in that area. I knew his father, Joe, from the old Stratford Armory Gunshow. Christ, I must be getting old! 

[Mike Brooks]

Keep in mind that a lot of strange things came out of French arsenals when they got in a bind for guns. There is a possibility this gun was built "as is" in France. Best way to  tell would be to have the wood tested to see if it is euro or black walnut. From what I can see from the photos it looks a lot like euro walnut, pretty finely grained.
 On the other hand, there were a lot of old French guns broken down for parts in New England after the F&I war that were restocked into usable guns for the continental army. A lot of parts went into civilian fowling guns too. Take a look at Grinslade's book. Several civilian fowling guns there with french rampart barrels.

[ntqlvr1948]

I don't know if it is American wood or not. But it is not black walnut. I know that wood well. I also collect American early furniture and havn't seen whatever that wood is.

[WESTbury]

Billy Ahearn discusses Austrian muskets associated with the Rev War and has photos showing a "US" surcharge on the breechplug tang and lockplate of one such Austrian musket in .78 cal. The front band has a "similar" front band arrangement for the ramrod as yours. However, the front band of the Austrian musket is secured by a band spring from the rear. The front band on your musket looks to be friction fitted.

In any event, try researching some more Austrian muskets that may lead you somewhere unexpected.

Billy does point out that the Austrian muskets has some furniture resembling that of French muskets of the period.

As Mike and Eric pointed out, many damaged muskets were broken up and the serviceable components were used to build new muskets. This was standard practice in this country after the Rev War.

Author and arms researcher Pete Schmidt believes that Springfield Armory broke-up all of its muskets produced from 1795 thru 1798 and used the components for new production, primarily because of the poor condition of the stocks. Pg 58 U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets Vol I by Peter Schmidt

[ntqlvr1948]

Thanks, what I can see is that I don't have enough reference books. I am grateful for all the responses
Gene