Author Topic: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."  (Read 5349 times)

Offline smart dog

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"Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« on: August 28, 2022, 12:39:40 AM »
Hi,
Robert Wogdon was so famous a maker of dueling pistols, he even had a poem written about him.  These Wogdon dueling pistols arrived last Friday.  For me, these are a Holy Grail of gun making. Disassembling and examining them is like taking a master class in gun making from one of the best ever. Over the next few days, I intend to post a lot of  photos of the pistols, inside and out, and discuss them in detail.  But for now, I'll just post the eye candy.

       






They are 40 bore (0.488 caliber) and are in very good condition.  The flint cock on the pistol in the third photo above is a replacement and I will reshape it to match the other.  Both pistols have some stock damage around the barrel keys nearest the muzzles and on one the stock is split at the muzzle, which I will repair.  They are both in perfectly useable condition. 
   







They can be dated very accurately.  The London Gunmakers Guild view and proof marks are clear on the barrels.  Wogdon used the private Tower proofing service until 1774 so these pistols are no earlier than that.  Wogdon also shifted the location of his proof and makers marks to the underside of his barrels in 1778.  Therefore, these pistols were definitely made between 1774 and 1778.  The oval style of the rouletting engraved at the breech of the barrel and the acorn trigger guard finials also point to that time period.








The barrels are of his "French" form.  They have a slight octagon shape at the breech but are mostly round and taper toward the muzzle.



The locks are superb examples of the best lock making during the 1770s. They have safety bolts but do not yet have the "water proof" pans or frizzen roller bearings.  Moreover, the pistols have simple triggers not the set or hair triggers common to dueling pistols 5-10 years later.  These guns were made fairly early in Wogdon's long career.









In the next posts, I will discuss details about the locks, barrels, stocks, and hardware.  In the process, hope to dispel a lot of rubbish considered common knowledge about dueling pistols both in literature and online.  Enjoy the ride.

dave


« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 12:46:27 AM by smart dog »
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Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2022, 12:45:19 AM »
Very nice. Thanks for the pictures  I look forward to your future postings.
Mike

Offline Carl Young

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2022, 01:58:40 AM »
I'm jealous Dave  :P, I've been looking for a Wogdon for awhile. If you don't mind, when you take the lock(s) out I'd like to see photos of the works, and particularly the safety mechanism.

Thanks for posting this!
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline ntqlvr1948

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2022, 02:38:33 AM »
Hi, i have a Wogdon but only the one. It is known that in the past when an owner died the guns would get split up. Mine is a little later as the proofs are under the barrel...




Offline WESTbury

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2022, 03:02:49 AM »
Dave,

Eye Candy! Very much looking forward to your presentation.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2022, 05:43:09 AM »
Dave, congratulations on your new acquisitions! They are as good a pair of pistols as anyone could ever hope to own. Thank you for showing them here and they now have lodging exactly where they should be. Good for you and well deserved.
Dick

Offline alacran

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2022, 02:22:18 PM »
Wow after 200 plus years the wood to metal fit is still exceptional.
Thanks for posting, beautiful pistols.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2022, 02:47:53 PM »
Thank you Dick,
I've examined and handled one other pair of Wogdons, which were from the late 1780s and had all the bells and whistles as far as Wogdon went.  I especially like these because they are earlier and before the "true" British dueling pistol was fully evolved.  These do not have hair (set) triggers and octagon barrels that later became almost universal on duelers.

  Carl, this is your lucky day.  I am going to start with the locks. They are the typical product of Wogdon's shop during the 1770s. They have safety bolts but none of the the other bells and whistles that came later like roller frizzens, tumbler with stirrups, and waterproof pans.  Also, Wogdon did not always subscribe to those features.  For example, he often made pistols late in his career without roller frizzens or tumblers with stirrups because he believed he could shape and balance the frizzen and mainsprings so well they did not benefit from any increased performance with a roller in the frizzen or stirrup in the tumbler.  So let's look at the outside of one of these locks.



They are classic high quality locks from the 1770s.  The pans are shallow and wide, and do not have any of the rain guttering found on later locks.  The finial for the frizzen spring is flattened, which is an early Wogdon feature.  They have narrow safety bolt thumb plates.  Later those were made wider.  No gold in the pan and pan cover fits really tightly when closed.  The lock plate and flint cock were probably charcoal blued but none of that finish remains.  O'Sullivan and Bailey, in their book on Wogdon, showed a bill by Wogdon from the 1780s indicating case coloring suggesting he offered that as an option.  Note the hump in the top leaf of the frizzen (feather) spring. As the frizzen opens, the hump offers more resistance to the frizzen toe until the toe slides over the crest.  Once past the crest, resistance is reduced greatly much like having a roller on the frizzen or feather spring.  The frizzen snaps over and open when raised about 30 degrees above the pan.



The locks are small, only 3 13/16" long and 13/16" wide behind the pans.



Let's look inside. 



They are magnificent products of the lock maker's art.  The face of the toe of the mainspring is ground at an angle so it perfectly slides over the toe of the tumbler, smooth as silk.  You can see the bridle with the stud of the safety bolt protruding in its slot.  Also, the center of the sear spring is covered over by the triangular shaped safety bolt spring.



As the lock is pulled to full cock, the end of the mainspring slides right up into the inside corner of the tumbler allowing a slight lessening of the force needed to pull the cock back to full. The lower leaf of the mainspring is straight at full cock and the sear bar is slightly raised when the lock is at rest but then lowers to the same position for half and full cock. The tumblers do not have fly detents, which would be required if the set triggers were installed. The safety bolt is activated when the lock is at half cock.  The thumb plate is pushed forward extending a bolt into a slot in the tumber, locking it in place.  The bolt spring acts on a little nub on the bolt to lock it forward or back.  The bolt is pulled back when the lock is to be brought to full cock.







Here are some photos of a later style Wogdon lock I made showing the safety bolt.  It is easier to see the parts when they are bright and shiny.
 








Notice, the thumb catch on the outside of the lock has a bar that slides through a slot in the lock plate and into a tiny mortise in the safety bolt on the inside.  You can see the end of that bar in its mortise.  A pin or screw is then inserted through the bolt and bar, locking it in place.  I can say from experience, cutting that tiny mortise into the safety bar is a very precise task. The bolt spring has a little nub inside that rides over the nub on the rear end of the bolt locking it forward or backward.





The safety mechanism works smoothly on both pistols.  It takes exactly 7 lbs of force to pull the cock back from rest to full when pressure is applied backward on the top screw.  It takes 2 lbs 14 oz of force to pull the frizzen closed when force is applied just below the top of the steel (frizzen face).  Therefore, it takes 41% of the force required to pull the cock back to full to close the pan. The locks spark really well.   Next up will be the barrels.


dave
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 02:59:27 PM by smart dog »
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2022, 03:23:54 PM »
 WOW! I'm going to have to read that a few times. Well done.

   Tim

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2022, 04:29:45 PM »
I love me a pair of Wogdons or really any British dueling pistols. I wrote a blog post and did a video on some recently:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/riac-blog/dueling-pistols-robert-wogdon
P.S. Yes, I know the thumbnail for the article isn't a pair of Wogdon pistols. The social media guys didn't know better.



I would love to own a pair of Wogdon's some day, especially the pairs from later in his career when they are a bit larger. Cased pairs are usually well outside of my budget, but every now and again you can find a lone pistol pretty reasonably cheap.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 04:36:58 PM by Seth I. »
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2022, 05:21:32 PM »
Hi Seth,
Thank you for that video.  Excellent synopsis!!  My perspective on these pistols is from the view point of a gun maker rather than historian or collector.  They offer clues and views into the "mysteries" of how the guns were made and why certain things were done.  I also focus on details that are important for anyone trying to build something similar or at least adopt some of the features presented. 

Ntqlvr1948,
Thanks for posting that photo.  Your pistol was made later but probably not very much later.

dave
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Offline Feltwad

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2022, 08:48:34 PM »
I love me a pair of Wogdons or really any British dueling pistols. I wrote a blog post and did a video on some recently:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/riac-blog/dueling-pistols-robert-wogdon

P.S. Yes, I know the thumbnail for the article isn't a pair of Wogdon pistols. The social media guys didn't know better.



I would love to own a pair of Wogdon's some day, especially the pairs from later in his career when they are a bit larger. Cased pairs are usually well outside of my budget, but every now and again you can find a lone pistol pretty reasonably cheap.

Now is time to buy on the UK market  all types of flint and percussion pistols  more so the  not popular makers  have dropped in price  at most auctions
Feltwad
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 08:22:46 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Ezra

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2022, 10:29:14 PM »
A very excellent thread Smart Dog, thank you.

Ez
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2022, 10:53:53 PM »
Hi Seth,
Thank you for that video.  Excellent synopsis!!  My perspective on these pistols is from the view point of a gun maker rather than historian or collector.  They offer clues and views into the "mysteries" of how the guns were made and why certain things were done.  I also focus on details that are important for anyone trying to build something similar or at least adopt some of the features presented. 
dave

Thanks for sharing yours and all of those details. I look forward to seeing more. When I first saw the title, I thought maybe someone had shared my post. The original title before the media guys "optimized" it for search engines and what not was "Robert Wogdon, 'Patron Saint of the Leaden Death,' and the Golden Age of Flintlock Dueling Pistols"
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Carl Young

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2022, 11:19:24 PM »
Thanks Dave!!! the lock is what I expected. I have one original bolted-safety flintlock that I will post pics of when I have access to it next week.

Thanks again for the great info!
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2022, 12:59:50 AM »
Hi,
I am so glad that folks are enjoying this. All I can say is that I have a real passion for British guns from this period but it is from the perspective of a gun maker.  I want to know how they made the finest guns in the world so I can up my own gun making game. With respect to Wogdon, John O'Sullivan and Dewitt Bailey published their book "Robert Wogdon, Wogdon and Barton, John Barton: London Gunmakers 1764-1819" in 2019.  It was published by Bonhams and is a deep dive into the biography, history, and work of that great gun making firm. Many of the details I am exploring are described in the book.
   
When discussing the barrels on Wogdon's pistols, the question "Did he bend his barrels?" always comes up.  The answer is yes.  O'Sullivan and Bailey provide indisputable radiography and instrument measurements proving it in their monograph about Robert Wogdon.  I used much simpler tools to determine if the bores of my pistol barrels were curved.    I turned a dowel to a diameter just slightly smaller than the bore of the barrels so it would slide in easily but with very little play.  The dowel could only be inserted about 2/3s of the way into both barrels before binding. Then I compared the outside top and bottom profiles against a straight edge.  The first photo shows the straight edge along the top of the barrel.
   


It touches most of the way and shows a fairly straight taper from the breech to the muzzle.  Then I checked the bottom.



You can clearly see the space between the ruler and barrel and the barrel is strongly swamped downward at the breech.  That was how Wogdon concealed the bend downward at the breech.  He made the top profile either a straight taper or a gentle swamp while giving the unseen bottom a fairly substantial swamp that accommodates the bore bending downward toward the breech.    As Seth mentioned in his video, the idea was to lower the point of impact of the bullet because of "muzzle flip", the tendency for the muzzle to rise during firing. While Wogdon's pistols were famous for accuracy, the barrel bending had nothing to do with it. It does not send the ball out with a downward arcing trajectory until gravity overcomes the force of propulsion as it eventually does for any bullet shot from a gun.
Keep in mind, these guys were not physicists and had very limited means to rigorously test ideas.

So my barrels appear to be bent.  Moreover they are likely made of "watered" or "stub" iron.  Stubs are the left over horseshoe nails that folks would collect off the roads and sell to iron mongers.  The iron used to make nails had to be top notch or the nails could not be cut or used. So excellent iron was used and the barrel forgers believed the pounding of the nails on the roads and cobblestones made that iron more ductile.  The stubs were bundled together within a hoop of iron and mixed with bits of steel. The assembly was heated red hot in the forge and hammered into a flat skelp.  This made very strong barrels with beautiful patterns when browned.   Here is an example from a fowler by Mortimer.
 




The Mortimer barrels are made from stubs but the initial flat skelps are cut into strips that are then twisted with other strips and welded together into flat skelps.  Then those are spirally welded around a mandrel to form the tube.  In the case of my pistol barrels, the stub iron is not twisted and they likely were lap welded longitudinally along the length of the tube. They probably had a beautiful marbled appearance from the browning when new. 

The 40-bore (0.488 caliber) barrels are 8" long, 0.884" high and 0.892" wide at the breech.  They taper to 0.684" high and 0.689" wide at the muzzle.  They are fitted with 2 lugs for flat keys on the bottom each with loops 0.125" wide.  The wide loops create a nice smooth and wide surface over which the keys slide.  That provides smooth but firm pressure on the keys.





The barrels are of a style O'Sullivan and Bailey called "French" form.  Wogdon used that style for most of his early production. The barrels are mostly tapered round but there is a top flat all the way to the muzzle and the first 2 inches of the barrel at the breech have slight octagon flats, which you can see here.



Later, Wogdon adopted fully swamped octagon barrels for his dueling pistols.  The barrels are stamped with London Gunmaker Guild view and proof marks as well as Wogdon's mark.  They are visible on the left oblique flat.  After 1778, the marks were on the bottom of the barrel.  Wogdon engraved his name and "LONDON" on the top flat along with a border of oval "rouletting" at the breech. Later, he would usually have a double row of more rounded rouletting engraved at the breech.



As you can see from the muzzle photo, the top flat was filed into a round turned barrel.  It is not raised.



I made height and width measurements the full lengths of both barrels.  Based on the irregularities in those measurements I am certain the barrel blanks were hand filed to form the taper. The turret lathe was still in the future.  They were not obsessed with modern machinist precision with respect to minor deviations in the taper and evenness of the barrel.  The front sight is mortised into the barrel and appears to be made of silver.  It is not dovetailed and there is no windage adjustment.  Again, that is an early feature.
   





The barrels are fitted with "false", "standing", "break off", "hook" breeches.  Virtually all British guns of better quality at this time used standing breeches coupled with barrel keys.  The tangs are beautifully engraved and the fit today must be as tight as it was in the 1770s when the pistols were made.











The standing breeches have the lugs on the bottom for cross pins that anchor the bottom.  With the tang screw, the two points of anchoring provide rigidity to the breech so the hook can engage very firmly and not lift the breech up.  To that end the slots in the breeches for the hooks are tapered toward the top so the hook on the barrel tightens into its slot when fully seated. They are as precise and snug today as they must have been 247 years ago.  They also have rear sights fitted.  The sights are not adjustable and feature a wide "U" notch.  That was designed so the shooter could acquire a target picture quickly with sufficient accuracy at about 15 yards. The vent holes are bushed with some material that might be gold but I cannot tell.  They are not the wide gold liners you see on high end British guns.

More to come.

dave
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 01:19:27 AM by smart dog »
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Offline bama

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2022, 01:16:21 AM »
Very nice pistol, thank you for sharing these photo's' and information.
Jim Parker

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Offline WESTbury

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2022, 03:33:07 AM »
Dave,

I've enjoyed your well documented and technical explanations of the details pertaining to these outstanding pistols and your commentary. Appreciate your sharing these arms with us.

Kent
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Offline J. Talbert

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2022, 04:58:46 AM »
Dave,

Thanks so much for taking the time and trouble to post all these great pictures and details.
I’m very envious of your new pistols. ;)

Jeff
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2022, 05:00:50 PM »
Very well done on all counts, Dave!

I think this thread should be stickied for future builders!
In my mind, it is harder to get an English pistol Right, than a Longrifle.  a lot harder.
This thread would be of great assistance.

It is a strange thing, how we can look at a high end original, and everything looks So Right, whereas even some of the best reproductions still leave us with that nagging reservation, that all is not as it should be.
Thank you for this thread!!

Richard.

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2022, 07:58:54 PM »
Hi Richard,
I agree completely even with respect to my own work. It really pays to be able to disassemble these guns and examine them with gun maker's eyes.   It is like interviewing someone and knowing the right questions to ask.

Next up the stocks.  They are English walnut (Juglans regia), which is the same species as French, Turkish, European, Circassian, Italian, Armenian etc walnuts.  In fact, during the 1770s, walnut was scarce in Britain and much was being imported from Italy. The guns are stocked to the muzzle and the total length is 12.125".  These are small pistols.  The right angle drop from the top of the breech to the bottom of the handle is 4.125"  Here is a diagram that may help.
   


Note the area I call the "Wogdon Square".  If you look at photos of Wogdon dueling pistols and measure at a right angle down from the breech to the bottom of the handle, and then horizontally from the breech to the back of the handle, the measurements will be close and the enclosed shape is a square.  Some will be elongated a little horizontally but still pretty close to square.  I believe this is the most important key to getting that Wogdon profile right.  Obviously, there will be some variations depending on the fit of the owner but the handle area will in most cases fit within a square.  I have other dimensions for the rest of the stock.  The height of the stock from top of the barrel channel to the bottom of the stock is 0.925" at the lock and 0.518" mid way between the ramrod pipes.  The pin for the rear pipe is 4.357" from the breech and the forward pipe pin is 6.07" from the breech.  The forward pipe is 0.712" long with internal diameter of 0.317".  The rear pipe is 1.87" long with the tang and 0.289" internal diameter.  All of the hardware is iron or steel.  The pipes are not made from sheet.  It is not clear to me how they were fabricated.
 





The trigger guard bow is 1.07" high above the trigger plate and 1.72" long.  These are big trigger guards relative to the small size of the pistol.  The rear extension of the guard is 2.125" long from the attachment to the bow and 0.44" wide.  The forward extension is 2.41" long. 
 




The engraving is well done and the same on both pistols.  There is no engraving on the rear extensions.  The front is held in place by a cross pin hidden within the lock mortise. The rear has no pin.  The tab is shaped into a hook that slides under a lug embedded in the mortise. To remove the guard, you have to take out the forward pin and then pop the forward extension up and then slide the guard forward to release the rear hook.  The trigger plate has a boss for the tang bolt and a rear screw. 

 



The triggers are simply pinned to the stock.  Later in Wogdon's career, he usually installed set triggers.  The set or "hair" triggers were not secret. Often there was an adjustment screw visible but sometimes they had none and the trigger pull was set by the gunsmith with the trigger assembly removed from the stock.



The stocks are superbly inlet.  A CNC machine might do the work faster but no better.










In the last photo, you can see the hole for the trigger guard pin, a little above and behind is the hole for the pin anchoring the bottom of the standing breech, and then further back is the trigger pin.  Here they all are from the other side.



The lock bolts have simple washers surrounding them.  The stocks are clearly finished with some sort of varnish, probably linseed oil based.  No modern dull "in the wood" oil finish here.  They are still a bit shiny and the rich brown color still shows.




dave
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2022, 04:46:05 PM »
Excellent info for a builder here, Dave!
Great to see these details, maybe never seen before!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2022, 05:25:50 PM »
All these details seen in fine antique arms were done by people who had no other ideas about how to do them.
Today we can bring in ideas that did not exist then but then,IF the current makers took the time like Tom Dawson
did with his Hawken copies they'd make maybe a dollar an hour.I made some locks for Tom that I would NOT make today
even if I were to start making again and they were low end styles with one screw at the top of the bridle and only full
cock or all the way down o the nipple.He was the only one I ever made these for and they were not numerous.
Bob Roller

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2022, 05:27:18 PM »
All these details seen in fine antique arms were done by people who had no other ideas about how to do them.
Today we can bring in ideas that did not exist then but then,IF the current makers took the time like Tom Dawson
did with his Hawken copies they'd make maybe a dollar an hour.I made some locks for Tom that I would NOT make today
even if I were to start making again and they were low end styles with one screw at the top of the bridle and only full
cock or all the way down o the nipple.He was the only one I ever made these for and they were not numerous.
Bob Roller

 Bob
 Is it true that you’re not making locks anymore????
 Inquiring minds need to know.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2022, 05:53:03 PM »
Stoner,
I made my last locks,2 that used the L&R Durs Egg external parts in August of 2019 and delivered them to the CLA Show to the new owner.*
There was a partly finished Hawken lock styled like the Archie Peterson lock (J&S) and a local man has it now.I was having and still do have lower back spasms and at times they make it hard to walk and standing at a bench is not a good idea for me.I make only a trigger every so often and that's it. The first 4 months of this year I was in the shop only to get a screwdriver.No work done at all on anything.My wife has a number of health issues now including heart problems and I spend more time in the house than ever before.Overnight trips are no longer possible for either of us.This is where we are now and I doubt that I will revive lock making again.Too labor intensive to get the level of
detail that I think the buyer deserves from my shop.Thank you for the note and question.
Bob Roller
* The buyer of the 2 Durs Egg locks also got 2 double set triggers to go with them.Inquiring minds need to know and a feeble one replies ;D.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 06:29:08 PM by Bob Roller »