Author Topic: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."  (Read 5343 times)

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2022, 01:33:30 AM »
Hi,
Here are a few more examples showing the "square" architecture of the handle.  Other makers did the same but Wogdon was an early innovator for the dueling pistol and others may have copied him.
Another Wogdon:



My version made in 2009:



Joe Manton (a little more rectangular):


The ramrods are tapered and may be rosewood.  The tips are horn and the ferrules are rolled iron sheet, brazed, and with tow worms attached. 









Another feature of these Wogdon pistols, there is cast off away from the locks in the handles.  The handles also lean away from the lock sides.  Both pistols are exactly the same.



When I hold these pistols and then raise them naturally to aim in my right hand, the sights are to the left.  When I hold the pistols in my left hand and raise them to aim, they are dead on.  The stocks likely were fitted to the hand of the owner.  Perhaps the owner of these was left handed but that would need more testing with more people.  For me this raises two really important points, one instructive to gun makers and the second instructive to historians.  First, they show some of the elements within the square that can be changed to fit the owners.  Those are cast off/cast on, and tilt.  For the historians, the fact that dueling pistols were tailored to the owner debunks any notion that pistols were usually shared during a duel.  Why would one person want to duel with a pistol designed for his antagonist?  As O'Sullivan and Bailey assert in their book, the pistol pair was to provide a second shot not to share with the opponent.  He brought his own pistols just like he brought his own sword when duels were resolved by sword play. There were duels with shared pistols and they were usually because one participant did not have a brace or the rules agreed upon by the participants required third party pistols, like the Hamilton-Burr duel. 

dave



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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2022, 11:29:01 PM »
For the historians, the fact that dueling pistols were tailored to the owner debunks any notion that pistols were usually shared during a duel.  Why would one person want to duel with a pistol designed for his antagonist?  As O'Sullivan and Bailey assert in their book, the pistol pair was to provide a second shot not to share with the opponent.  He brought his own pistols just like he brought his own sword when duels were resolved by sword play. There were duels with shared pistols and they were usually because one participant did not have a brace or the rules agreed upon by the participants required third party pistols, like the Hamilton-Burr duel. 
dave

I've thought about this in the past concerning some pistols having hidden rifling. If both men were shooting pistols from the same set, that isn't really an advantage for anyone, but if each was shooting their own pistols and only one duelist had rifling, that could be an unfair advantage even though these pistols are plenty accurate without rifling anyways.

There seem to be plenty of duels fought with each duelist firing from a shared set as well as many duels fought with each supplying their own set. I've never kept track of how many of each as I've been reading, but I've definitely seen a fair number of accounts of each scenario. I wonder if one or the other was more common in the UK vs the US or if it was about equal in both places. It would be interesting to take a deeper dive into documented duels with this in mind and see what we could find. There were some unusual duels where each duelist held two pistols or where both the duelists and their seconds fought. Dueling was far less rigid than most people think. There were a lot of different forms and some very odd deviations from the "norm" at times.

I also wonder if there are more detailed accounts to show whether pistols were truly being made bespoke for their owners or if most were in fact sold based on the maker's standard patterns. It might be that most were made standardized but that some rarer examples were made specifically to fit their original owners when requested. We'd need to compare more pistols from the same maker in the same time period to see if there are enough signs of differences in the stocks or other features to indicate that was the case or find records showing that to be the case. I will say that the pairs of Wogdons I have examined recently pointed just fine for me right handed and that the grip seemed straight rather than cast-off or on to me, but I didn't specifically look to see if they had any variation in that regard. Your observations will have me watching for that in the future.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2022, 01:05:54 AM »
Hi,
Experienced history today by shooting both pistols.  They functioned beautifully even with well used flints.  Trigger pull was crisp and just under 4 lbs.  They are not hair triggers by any means.  They require determined pressure but are very easy to get used to.  Ignition was very fast, as fast as I've ever experienced, and very reliable. I can see how the wide rear sight allows you to acquire your man-sized target quickly and line things up almost instantly.  However, it is not for target shooting.  Moreover, the cast off of the handles forces my point well to the left.  I have to aim to the right when I come up or down with the pistols and acquire my aim.  It makes a huge difference.  There is no question that these pistols were fitted to the original owner.  I cannot speak to the accuracy of the guns until I've shot them some more and figured out the sighting for me. 

Cleaning was a piece of cake because the barrels can be removed so easily and washed with soap and water. After cleaning and oiling the barrels, I was able to get a good illuminated view of the bores.  They are in terrific shape and the breech plugs are notched at the touch hole.  The notches are shallow but very wide and extend almost all the way across the face of the plug.  I do not know if the vent holes are funneled on the inside but the speed of ignition suggests that might be the case.  I learned a lot today but one thing learned that was gratifying, the Wogdons I made are right up there with these.  I got them right.

dave   
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2022, 04:39:19 PM »
There is no question that these pistols were fitted to the original owner.

Why? Seems without documentation and/or showing that there is a lot of variation in Wogdon's pistols in general, this remains a plausible theory but not proved beyond reasonable doubt.

It is really cool to hear that they shot flawlessly and showed you how nice the Wogdon's you made are as well. All of the Wogdon's I've handled, even the well-worn ones, have felt great in my hand, and I'd love to own a pair one day for sure. They are among the best of the best of the era for sure and definitely the most iconic.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 04:44:46 PM by Seth I. »
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2022, 05:19:16 PM »
Seth,
These pistols would not be made identical and with cast-off butts by accident.
They fit a left handed shooter, and most pistols of quality were made For someone, rather than finished and sold. We see pistols with extra large grips for men with bigger hands, its just the way it was.
 Yes, livery pistols, of middling class would come finished, but most men of stature would think no more of having  pistols made to fit them than they would having their sporting guns fitted to them.
Of course, if a patron purchased new pistols, the old ones could become available as second hand possibly.
Gentlemen often liked "input" into their guns.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2022, 05:20:25 PM »
Hi Dave,

A question popped into my mind when I looked at these great Wogdons. 

"Why so much wear?"

That is not meant in any way to cast aspersions or negative comments about these fine pistols. 

Where it comes from is how many set of dueling pistols are seen in superb shape.  I think mainly due to living an easy life in a case with little use.

These Wogdons have clearly been used.  Pondering.....given the dates, could these have been used in the Revolution?   No way to know, but fun to ponder. 

Thank you for sharing these.   God Bless,   Marc

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2022, 05:35:39 PM »
Seth,
These pistols would not be made identical and with cast-off butts by accident.
They fit a left handed shooter, and most pistols of quality were made For someone, rather than finished and sold. We see pistols with extra large grips for men with bigger hands, its just the way it was.
 Yes, livery pistols, of middling class would come finished, but most men of stature would think no more of having  pistols made to fit them than they would having their sporting guns fitted to them.
Of course, if a patron purchased new pistols, the old ones could become available as second hand possibly.
Gentlemen often liked "input" into their guns.

That all makes sense to me, but do we know this was indeed common or standard practice I guess is my question and if so how? I fully understand that wealthy gentlemen of the sort that would be buying Wogdon's pistols had the means to purchase custom pistols, and your sporting gun comparison was also in my mind. Many of the elite that are serious about their guns even today would not consider an off-the-shelf shotgun instead of a bespoke double barrel from a top maker, but there are a ton of people perfectly happy with a well-made double that is in stock and would not want to wait months for something custom. Lots of gunmakers made multiple pairs of pistols that are identical or nearly identical suggesting to me at least that they were making batches of similar guns which would be more efficient than making bespoke pieces. Making bespoke pairs when directly ordered makes perfect sense to me. So in my mind, I imagine there was some of both. In what proportion I have no idea. It would be nice to have some documentation to fall back on or side by side comparisons of guns from the same maker at the same time to see how much variation there really was to get a better idea of this issue. All in all, a fascinating subject, and my questioning and prodding here is out of a sincere desire to have a more complete understanding of the topic and meant as no disrespect to Dave or anyone else sharing their theories and knowledge.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2022, 06:46:52 PM »
Hi Seth,
If not made for the owner, why are not the pistols all the same all the time or at most scaled the same depending on barrel size? I think you should turn your question around.  Why would they not be fitted to the owner if their purpose was to point naturally and snap shoot, just like a birding gun?  Of course, fitting would likely require the owner to visit Wogdon's shop.  Perhaps some customers did not come in for a fitting so were given generic dimensions for the barrel and bore size.  However, it is really hard to believe that the pistols I own were made from some generic formula because the effect of the cast off of the handles is so pronounced and is hard to overcome without my grip feeling unnatural.  Moreover, both pistols are exactly the same.  Documentation might be hard to come by because dueling was illegal.  Wogdon appears to not have ever referred to his pistols in bills of sale as dueling pistols.  It was always just a pair or brace of pistols. 

Marc,
The pistols might not have been cased.  Cases, as we think of them were starting to be popular late in the 1770s.  Cases also get lost over the years.  The other thing to consider is that many of those beautiful pistols you see at auction have been extensively restored and refinished. That is particularly true of the barrels. 

dave 
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2022, 07:16:44 PM »
Good points Dave,
I really meant to be calling into question the assertion that this pair proves that dueling pistols were bespoke broadly rather than that this pair itself was custom fitted for the original owner. The unusual cast-off wrists certainly point to that in this case. Nearly every pair of dueling pistols I've dealt with from the late 18th century and early 19th century have pointed very naturally for me personally.

Quote
Perhaps some customers did not come in for a fitting so were given generic dimensions for the barrel and bore size. 
This is the part I'm mostly wondering about. Do we have any way to figure out if a larger percentage of the customers took the time to go to get fitted or were most just buying what Wogdon, the Mantons, etc. made for them or had in stock? Hard to say without records or a bunch of pairs being compared side by side. It would be incredible to get to see an array all at once. Unfortunately, most of us rarely get the chance to see more than a pair or two of these pistols at a time.

The pistols in your case would have been a disadvantage for the opponent if the duelists followed the famous Irish Code which listed:
Rule 49. It is desirable that the same pair of pistols be used by both parties.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 07:47:08 PM by Seth I. »
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline ScottH

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2022, 07:45:14 PM »
Dave,
 Thank you so much for taking the time to photograph and post all of these images for us!
Much appreciated!
Scott

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2022, 09:29:03 PM »
Hi,
First, let me say you are all welcome.  So many of the guns we wish to see are hidden in collections that rarely see the light of day. I am happy to share what I can.  I never buy originals for investment reasons.  They are all educational opportunities for me and as such are another part of my library. 

Seth, I smile when someone brings up the various "Code Duellos" that were published.  I always think of the scene in "Pirates of the Caribbean" when Keith Richards brings out "The Brethren Code According to Morgan and Bartholomew".  Yet the key characters always claim "they are more like guidelines, ya know".    ;D

Marc,
These pistols also were obviously owned by one or more people who abused them. The heads of the barrel keys on one are all mangled as if someone tried to pry out the keys from that side.  Both pistols have stock damage from someone doing that rather than tapping the keys out from the lock side.  In addition, on one pistol the trigger was bent back just enough to hit the rear of the guard making the trigger pull excessive.  What I suspect happened is someone yanked the trigger back hard when the lock was still half cocked and bent the trigger just a little.  I fixed that right away.  All the bluing and browning is wiped or polished away and pitting from rust is apparent. 

dave 

dave

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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2022, 09:56:37 PM »

Seth, I smile when someone brings up the various "Code Duellos" that were published.  I always think of the scene in "Pirates of the Caribbean" when Keith Richards brings out "The Brethren Code According to Morgan and Bartholomew".  Yet the key characters always claim "they are more like guidelines, ya know".    ;D

dave


Definitely! There are a ton of duels fought way outside the various "codes" that were published. All that really mattered was that the terms were agreed upon, and too many people do make to much of a fuss about the "code." However, the codes do at least give you an idea of what at least some people in the period considered to be "proper" for dueling. Dueling's history is so much more varied and exciting than Hollywood, historical fiction authors, many more generic gun books, etc. would have us believe. That is why I enjoy the subject so much, and why I'm enjoying this discussion of your pistols and dueling so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to share so many detailed photos of the pistols. While I pop locks and barrels out of these pistols regularly when appropriate as part of inspecting them, I don't completely take them down as you have, so you've allowed me and many others to see aspects of the building of these historic pistols that we otherwise wouldn't get the chance to see. Thanks!
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2022, 04:16:16 PM »
Altogether an interesting thread!
Seth,
Yes, we are all struggling to get our heads around whatvwas, and what Maybe was in the 18th Century.
It was asked above why the amount of wear, (Marc)
I can only say two causes,
1 later generations playing with them, and more importantly;
In the earlier times of duelling pistols, the pistols were often the travel companions of gentlemen.  Not kept purely for duelling.
When we think of this it makes sense;
Would we rather risk our lives with pistols we are hardly familiar with, or ones well known to us?
Whether the owner traveled by coach or horseback, the pistols went along, either cased or in livery holsters.
They were usually fresh loaded and primed for travel, and fired off at a mark at home on return.  Bein gloaded fresh for the next outing.
This can add up to a whole pile of shooting, Much more than being carried out in say the Revolution, where an officer may discharge his pistols maybe once or never!
Its a documented fact, that many gentlemen had a mark fixed close to the house . This kept them up to snuff with their arms, and were ideal practice  if ever drawn into a duel.
For town dwelling gents, the gunmaker's shop mostly had a range to the rear, where pistol shooting was very popular.

Best,
R.

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2022, 05:36:30 PM »
Hi Richard,
Blackmore lists the addresses of quite a few of those shooting ranges in London.  For example, Henry Nock had one at "Clowster Gardens behind St. Georges Church, Blackfriars Road".  I suspect that was on the south side of the Thames and maybe was still open fields in the 1780s.  It will be fun figuring out how best to shoot my pistols.  It is a real thrill to shoot guns made 250 years ago.

dave
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2022, 07:17:14 AM »
Maybe try left handed Dave!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2022, 11:05:21 PM »
Today I got out Volume 1#2 of a book called The American Gun,published in 1961 by Herb Glass and Larry Sheerin and in it is a lengthy article on dueling.It goes into a lot of details and does condemn these "barbaric"fights with shotguns and revolvers.
  The article is titled,"The Death of Gentlemen.I have had these books since they were new in 1961 and I was told that the Fall edition was not published but the Spring,Summer and Winter of 1961 was.Has anyone ever seen a Fall 1961 edition of The American Gun? it is a large format,hard back style and the 3 I have cover a lot of history.My favorite id called "Fuzes,flints and pyrites" and goes into detail of the efforts to obstruct the oncoming fulminate system of firing a gun and extols the virtues of the superbly crafted locks of that time and speaks of fast ignition of the Manton locks and rain proof platinum lined pans and the exquisite workmanship that brought them into being and at the end of the article tells of an old gentleman,Townsend who clings stubbornly to his flintlock fowler but unknown to him,his grandson Thomas is at that moment in the celebrated shop of James Purdy ordering a new percussion double gun. A great read if you can find the book.I have studied these marvelous locks whenever possible and then realize that a tiny,copper cup with an impact sensitive chemical put them on the racks for a very long time.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: September 04, 2022, 03:17:25 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2022, 01:11:51 AM »
Hi Bob,
I have the same 3 books. No Fall issue.  I enjoy them and some of the large format color photography in them.  I have a large and still growing library that I've accumulated over 45 years and value every book.  I recently bought the two volumes of the Christies catalog for the 2001 auction of Keith Neal's collection.  I keep searching for the 1995 catalog covering the first sale of his immense collection.

dave 
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Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2022, 05:46:50 PM »
Hi,
All this brings me to the topic of how do you build pistols like these and in particular, like Wogdon's?  The pithy short answer is, it is not easy. I am just going to focus on British dueling pistols from the fourth quarter of the 18th century. No other guns.  Let's start with the easy stuff.  There are great barrels by Rice, Rayl, and Hoyt that are perfect.  Any nicely swamped octagon pistol barrel between 9 and 10" will work.  Ideally, they should be smooth bored but given we don't fight duels today, rifled barrels make fine target pistols.  Here are two from Rayl.






For Wogdon's early "French" barrels, you need to find nice tapered or swamped round barrels 8-10" long.  You want the barrels to be at least 7/8" at the breech but 1" is better.  Filing the top flat is not hard but it takes some skill to keep it even.  Octagon to round barrels were rarely used after about 1770 and before the dueling pistol fully evolved.  Lugs can be soldered or mortised but it is best to make the loops at least 1/8" wide.  Standing breeches were always fitted.  It is harder to find them now and few have the proper lugs on the bottoms.  TRS sells some that are the right size.



Contrary to rubbish occasionally encountered in print and online, British pistols made for dueling had front and rear sights. The sights were usually shaped to allow quick aim and snap shooting but they also could facilitate deliberate aim.  On Wogdons, the rear sight is part of the standing breech and is fixed.  On the pair I made, I dove tailed them into the barrel so they could be adjusted since the owner was a target shooter.  Wogdon's rear sights had a wide "U", narrow "U", "V" notch or a combination of those things.  The front sight may be mortised in place or mounted on a dovetailed base that could be adjusted for windage.  The sight was not soldered on the barrel.











The biggest problem are the locks.  Nobody makes a good pistol lock the right shape and size.  They are all too big and awkwardly shaped.  Most dueling pistol locks are less than 4 1/2" long and ideally about 4 1/4" and they are all flat faced.  That rules out all commercially made locks except the Davis "Becky" lock, which is no longer available and would need a lot of work to bring it up to the standard of originals.  Here is a photo showing Chambers late Ketland, Rice's new so-called "Nock" lock, and one of Wogdons locks.  Admittedly, the Wogdon lock is on the small size for later dueling pistols but only by about 1/2".



Some folks use L&R's Bailes or "Baby Manton" lock.  It is still too long and has a slightly curved plate that usually results in awkward looking pistols.  You cannot achieve the Wogdon profile with any of those locks because Wogdon pistols start to angle down into the handle within 1/4" of the end of the barrel.





The commercial locks are too long and too fat in the tails for that profile.  Currently, the only historically accurate option is to buy castings from Blackley's, TRS, or Chris Hirsch.  Chris has a nice pistol-sized lock but it is of a late flint design not found on Wogdons.  However, for early 19th century duelers it should be fine.  Not all Wogdon's pistols had safety bolts so that feature is not required.

Not all dueling pistols had single set or "hair" triggers but the vast majority did after 1780.  The best option is the single set trigger made by Davis but you will want to file away the scroll stuff on back of the trigger.  For Wogdons, you also want to bend the trigger straight down into a "stick" trigger. I am not sure if Log Cabin is still selling them but it is a really good option.   




Hardware mounts are either steel, iron, or real silver, never brass or German silver.  Some of the short cast steel pipes are fine but you want them 5/16" not 3/8" in diameter.  Making them from sheet steel is also an option.  Some pistols had but caps.  On Wogdons, these were usually simple round or tear drop shaped caps held on with a screw into the end. Occasionally,  pommel handled pistols were made often mounted in silver.  However, most probably had no caps at all.  Trigger guards are a problem.  No one makes a correct guard.  They all have bows too small.  Dueling pistols had large bows around the trigger.  During the 1770s-1790s the acorn finial would be common.  Beginning in the 1780s until the end of the flint era, the pineapple finial dominated. A few silver mounted pistols had unique cast finials but the acorn and pineapple were the most common by far.
I had to weld up my own because there are no good commercial options.  Hooked breeches with barrel keys are universal. The heads of the keys are usually shield shaped, not ovals. Commercial cast keys will work can be shaped correctly.  Get the thinnest you can.  Otherwise make them from flat steel bar.  They are always slotted and pinned to the stock.  Side plates are usually replaced by simple washers of steel or silver.  A few pistols had elaborate side plates usually of silver. 












Stocks are English walnut although American black walnut will do in a pinch.  They are made very plain and the vast majority of true dueling pistols had no carving. Wogdons are almost always full stocked although a few half stocked examples are known from late in his career.  They also may have been altered later in their working lives.  The famous Hamilton-Burr pistols were almost certainly full stocked in wood.  The heavy brass fore stocks on them now were added later and butchered the elegance and handling of the pistols .



The handles were either bag or cane handle types although some had pommels. Wogdon flattened the sides of his cane handles and those flats blended smoothly with the tails of the lock and side plate panels.   I discussed the "Wogdon square" previously.  Unlike horse pistols, dueling pistol handles often do not extend below your palm when held. No extra wood is left anywhere. No silver wire, maybe simple oval barrel key escutcheons, no muzzle caps.  A simple silver wrist plate was sometimes installed to be engraved with the owner's monogram. Frequently, particularly late in the 18th century, the grips were checkered. First, the coarse early style and later fine more modern looking checkering.


Barrels are browned and the stub, stub twist, and Damascus barrels used showed brilliant and beautiful patterns. The locks and iron and steel hardware were likely charcoal blued.  One bill shown in O'Sullivan and Bailey's book indicate Wogdon offered colored case hardening.  Stocks were varnished and had a satin or slightly glossy finish.  No modern dull  "in the wood"  oil finishes were used. Finally, all trigger guards, butt caps, standing breeches, and barrel breeches were engraved.  No poor boy pistols here.








picture upload sites













I hope you enjoyed this little essay and deep dive into a nice pair of Wogdon pistols.  It was fun to share this.

dave
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2022, 12:07:02 AM »
Dave, Your scholarship on the British dueling pistol is truly impressive beyond any words I can muster. And your rendering of Wogdon's guns would make him envious. Wonderful, wonderful!!! I hope that you will consider writing a book on your observations and findings. I am not a 'dueler' guy, but would gladly own a copy just for the knowledge you have brought here. Perhaps too, you and someone like Chris Hirsch might produce the necessary parts to offer to those who aspire to building a set. British guns in my opinion are the apex of 18th and 19th century gunmaking and this post is certainly a grand contribution to this craft. Thank you very much for sharing your work.
Dick 

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2022, 01:24:30 AM »
Hi Dick,
Thank you very much and I really enjoy sharing this kind of information.  I agree, the British guns were the best in the world at the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th centuries and any modern gun maker who wants to up his or her game should study and try to emulate British guns.  There are other firearms historians and collectors who know much more about theses guns than me but my perspective is that of a working gunsmith.  I look on these great guns always with the question "how do I do that too"?   

dave

"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2022, 01:39:58 AM »
The stick triggers would be an easy one.That type of set trigger is another thing entirely.I made some for a German customer over 40 years ago and even then I git $100 each.Locks atr another thing.The lock is on the BACK side of the plate.I have thought of making one on the L&R Small Manton plate with a bridle on three posts and probably a $350-$400 price.IF I decide to make any they will be sold on this forum and nowhere else.
Bob Roller

Mike OTDP

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2022, 09:41:24 PM »
Lovely.  I own a Wogdon&Barton pistol, will try to post pictures.  A real masterpiece...and an honor to shoot the thing.

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2022, 08:48:05 AM »
Great post Dave. I love to see cased pistols like those Wogdon's come up for auction and I dream of being able to afford a set. ONe day perhaps. I love the high end English guns of the period. I'm trying to see if my library can borrow a copy of the Bonham's book about Wogdon.

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2022, 04:28:48 PM »
Hi Justin,
That book is a goldmine and required reading if you want to copy Wogdon's work. 

Hi Bob,
A flintlock pistol lock less then 4.5" long and preferably 4.375", and 13/16" - 7/8" wide behind the pan fence is what is needed.  Moreover, a nice tapered tail looks best rather than the blunt pointed tails of the late Ketland locks now produced.

Hi All,
One dilemma I have at the moment is to decide what to do about the barrels on these pistols.  They are stub iron and likely have a beautiful marbled pattern when browned.  The original brown is virtually all gone and it was a reddish gold hue at least in spots. As they are now, the pattern is obscured so I am trying to decide if I will brown them again.  One of the best barrel and firearms metal finishers in the world talked me through how to do it and I have the set up for it. The question is should I?  I will repair spots on the stocks where wood was chipped away and I will make a replacement ferrule and tow worm for one of the ramrods. I've already arrested any corrosion on the steel furniture, which was actually the worst on the under sides of the components. The condition of the barrels is very good and would only need light polishing before browning.  I don't believe any of the markings would be appreciably affected.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2022, 07:27:20 PM »
Dave, this has been a wonderful thread, and I for one, appreciate the approach you have taken, ie:  that of the gunmaker.  Like your articles on British sporting guns and fowling pieces, this treatise is chaulked full of valuable previously unavailable information.  Most of us will never even be able to see, let alone hold, a pistol or pair such as these, and it is such a gift to have you share yours with us.  Many thanks!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.