"Hail Wogdon, Patron of the leaden death..."

[Niall]

Hi All,
One dilemma I have at the moment is to decide what to do about the barrels on these pistols.  They are stub iron and likely have a beautiful marbled pattern when browned.  The original brown is virtually all gone and it was a reddish gold hue at least in spots. As they are now, the pattern is obscured so I am trying to decide if I will brown them again.  One of the best barrel and firearms metal finishers in the world talked me through how to do it and I have the set up for it. The question is should I?  I will repair spots on the stocks where wood was chipped away and I will make a replacement ferrule and tow worm for one of the ramrods. I've already arrested any corrosion on the steel furniture, which was actually the worst on the under sides of the components. The condition of the barrels is very good and would only need light polishing before browning.  I don't believe any of the markings would be appreciably affected.

dave

Dave.
I can appreciate your dilemma. Where do you draw the line as regards refurbishment. As you say, a lot of the pairs of pistols sent for auction or presented at shows have had varying degrees of work done , in particular the barrels have been re-browned, often a considerable time ago. It's usually stated and no-one is is trying to hide anything, at least not from those with a modicum of knowledge and experience. If the re-browning has been well done and looks in keeping with the general condition it can very attractive. In other words, it's quite a common thing to see with these type of pistols. It's a totally different thing to the total refurb/ convertion that is also often seen.
If you feel you would like to do the work ,and no doubt you have the ability, I would say ''go ahead''. That's what the original owner back in the day would have done. I 'm sure you can adjust the finish so as to have a credible marriage between the barrel and the rest of the gun.
 
I own a pair of Dublin made duellers by Fowler. Although they have been converted to the percussion system ,maybe c.1830 and re-browned during their working life they still retain most of the spirit of the original format as well as the features of a pair of top quality duellers at a reasonable price. Like you ,I bought them primarily to study them.


They originally would have looked something like this, which has probably had it's barrel re-browned as well;

[Niall]

Hi All,
One dilemma I have at the moment is to decide what to do about the barrels on these pistols.  They are stub iron and likely have a beautiful marbled pattern when browned.  The original brown is virtually all gone and it was a reddish gold hue at least in spots. As they are now, the pattern is obscured so I am trying to decide if I will brown them again.  One of the best barrel and firearms metal finishers in the world talked me through how to do it and I have the set up for it. The question is should I?  I will repair spots on the stocks where wood was chipped away and I will make a replacement ferrule and tow worm for one of the ramrods. I've already arrested any corrosion on the steel furniture, which was actually the worst on the under sides of the components. The condition of the barrels is very good and would only need light polishing before browning.  I don't believe any of the markings would be appreciably affected.

dave

Dave.
I can appreciate your dilemma. Where do you draw the line as regards refurbishment. As you say, a lot of the pairs of pistols sent for auction or presented at shows have had varying degrees of work done , in particular the barrels have been re-browned, often a considerable time ago. It's usually stated and no-one is is trying to hide anything, at least not from those with a modicum of knowledge and experience. If the re-browning has been well done and looks in keeping with the general condition it can very attractive. In other words, it's quite a common thing to see with these type of pistols. It's a totally different thing to the total refurb/ convertion that is also often seen.
If you feel you would like to do the work ,and no doubt you have the ability, I would say ''go ahead''. That's what the original owner back in the day would have done. I 'm sure you can adjust the finish so as to have a credible marriage between the barrel and the rest of the gun.
edit; you could just do a test panel on the underside of one of the barrels to see what it might look like.
 
I own a pair of Dublin made duellers by Fowler. Although they have been converted to the percussion system ,maybe c.1830 and re-browned during their working life they still retain most of the spirit of the original format as well as the features of a pair of top quality duellers at a reasonable price. Like you ,I bought them primarily to study them.


They originally would have looked something like this, which has probably had it's barrel re-browned as well;

Niall

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,
I am with Niall on this one.
Id say go for it.

Richard.

[Carl Young]

Niall, Just so we don't hijack Dave's thread , it would be greatly appreciated if you would start a new topic and let the rest of us in on what you have learned ("One of the best barrel and firearms metal finishers in the world talked me through how to do it and I have the set up for it.").

Dave for what little my opinion is worth, I would lean toward a refinish... again I am echoing Niall's comment on what would have been done in the day in England. I would like to see a photo of the current finish too if you find it convenient.

Regards,
Carl

[Niall]

Niall, Just so we don't hijack Dave's thread , it would be greatly appreciated if you would start a new topic and let the rest of us in on what you have learned ("One of the best barrel and firearms metal finishers in the world talked me through how to do it and I have the set up for it.").



Regards,
Carl

Carl,

Unfortunately, I never had that conversation with the '' Best Barrel Finisher in the World ''    but maybe Dave can fill you in. I know, things can get confusing 

Niall

[smart dog]

Hi Carl,
I assisted with the restoration of a Mortimer fowler some months ago and in that process got to know Pete Mazur who did the browning of the barrel and charcoal bluing of the steel parts. Here is the  barrel Pete did in that project.





Pete is well known worldwide for his work on vintage doubles such as Holland & Hollands, Bosses, Purdeys, and Parkers etc.  In the process, Pete shared with me some of his methods and some of the tricks he learned through the years.  I won't go into all the details but the key elements for a vintage brown on a patterned barrel are first, the barrel must be well polished way more than you would for a normal browned long rifle barrel.  You actually want to retard the rusting by the polish.  The barrel is thoroughly degreased. Then the browning solution needs to be dilute. He doesn't use anything secret just a mix of acids such as ferric chloride but quite diluted. The solution is applied sparingly and in one swipe of the swab. Rusting is allowed for just 3-4 hours the first go and the barrel is carded with a very slow spinning soft stainless steel wheel, the kind Grobet sells. The slow spin is so very little heat is generated during carding.  That is critical if you want the brown to have the deep red tones of the barrel above.  If you build up too much heat, the colors will turn more blue-black and look like so many of the patterned iron or steel barrels you see on guns from the mid 19th century and later.  The reds will be lost.  After carding, the browning solution is applied again but rusting is only allowed for about 2 hours. Virtually no color starts to show until 5 or 6 coats.  It may take 30 or more applications to get the desired colors and translucent polish he achieves. This is not a method for anyone impatient.     Pete also taught me his method for charcoal bluing.  His was not much different than the method I was using but he used a much lower temperature for the heat soak.  I was heating my parts to 800 degrees or more and he recommended 700 degrees.  Our colors did not differ much but the lower temperature assures there are no metallurgical changes occurring in the iron or steel.

dave

[Carl Young]

Thank you Dave, that is what I've gathered over the years (I think the Double Gun Journal described this). Nice to know I theoretically understand the process, though I have not yet tried it (haven't been able to convince myself to modify an old barrel, and new damascus is expensive! 
Best regards,
Carl

[smart dog]

Hi Carl,
Keep in mind that Pete's advice has little to do with the browning solution and everything to do with the application process. So many writers focus on some magical solution rather than the secret is how you apply ANY browning solution.
 
dave

[Carl Young]

Dave, thank you for your kind and generous reply. I was born in Boston when my Dad was in the Army at Ft. Devons. He liked Vermont, saying the people there were much like us from southern Appalachia, kind and generous. And you have the best State motto!

When my Dad finished his service he returned to Alabama and eventually became Chief Metallurgist at USS in Birmingham, so iron and steel are in my blood. As a PhD I study and teach process so I understand and agree with what you have generously offered.

It would be a joy to visit you in NH and learn from you in person; until then I will continue to appreciate your skiils and contributions to ALR.

Best regards,
Carl

[Mattox Forge]

Pete also taught me his method for charcoal bluing.  His was not much different than the method I was using but he used a much lower temperature for the heat soak.  I was heating my parts to 800 degrees or more and he recommended 700 degrees.  Our colors did not differ much but the lower temperature assures there are no metallurgical changes occurring in the iron or steel.

dave

Dave,

If you don't mind me asking, what is the charcoal blueing process you use?

Thanks

Mike