Author Topic: Applying finish ?  (Read 7250 times)

Online Eric Krewson

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Applying finish ?
« on: November 01, 2009, 06:35:54 AM »
I put the aqufortis on my stock this afternoon and will blush it and neutralize it tomorrow.

Next will be the stock finish, I am using Chambers oil finish. My inlets for the trigger plate, tang and ramrod pipes are pretty tight, Do you think I should avoid these areas when I apply the finish or slop a good coat over everything including the inlets.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 07:51:27 AM »
I would mix it with some turpentine that has been set out in a shallow dish to pick up oxygen.
Thin it enough so that it will penetrate. 20% maybe depending on how thick the oil is. I am not familiar with Chambers oil but if its really linseed oil thinning is a good idea for the sealer coat.
This will not build up a great deal and should not cause problems with the inletting if you do not allow a buildup there. Exterior; put on all the stock will soak up over a period of 15 minutes or so. Then give it a few minutes and wipe with a soft cloth so there is. Set in the sun if possible to cure. Some oil will likely weep from the pores as the stock warms.

Dan
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Offline KLMoors

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 04:52:17 PM »
Yup, I agree. Chambers finish is real nice stuff but it IS thick. I thin the first and second coat as suggested but I use mineral spirits. I slop  both coats into all of the inlets. All the additional coats I avoid the inlets.

When I talked to Jim about using it he suggested putting it on heavy with a brush and then wiping it down with a paper towel. I do that for the first two coats and then switch to just a paper towel with a small bit of oil on it  for the rest of the coats.

One other note. It takes a long time to really get hard (the finish that is, LOL) so I give it two or even three days after the first two coats. That way, it seems to rub down much sweeter with the steel wool. I just figured this one out this past week.

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 05:04:07 PM »
Personnaly I put sealer on with all my parts that I carefully inletted still in place. I'm done trying to scrape out inlets afterward trying to get parts to fit as well as they did prior to sealing. Obviously you will have to clean a liitle slop off your brass parts but thats pretty easy with a little steel wool.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 06:16:20 PM »
Personnaly I put sealer on with all my parts that I carefully inletted still in place. I'm done trying to scrape out inlets afterward trying to get parts to fit as well as they did prior to sealing. Obviously you will have to clean a liitle slop off your brass parts but thats pretty easy with a little steel wool.

With some finishes this can glue parts in to the point of pulling chips when removing removable parts. BTDT.
Less likely with soft finishes but pretty likely with varnish, tru-oil etc.

Dan
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Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 07:21:06 PM »
I use shellac thinned with turp as a sealer. Havent had any sticking issues but you could always rub a little wax on your brass prior, that would ensure they don't stick. Actually you have less chance of screwing up an inlet this way than trying to scrape excess sealer out and also it frees you up slop the sealer on for max absorbtion rather than have to put it on sparingly trying not to clog up mortices. I got this advice from a high end builder and it has served me well.


Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 10:42:51 PM »
Quote
Personnaly I put sealer on with all my parts that I carefully inletted still in place. I'm done trying to scrape out inlets afterward trying to get parts to fit as well as they did prior to sealing. Obviously you will have to clean a liitle slop off your brass parts but thats pretty easy with a little steel wool.
I agree and its by far my choice to put the finish own with the hardware in place. That scraping has caused me more problems than I care to tackle again.
Dennis
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Offline KLMoors

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 01:13:47 AM »
Do you guys apply any type of sealer under the parts or do you just leave the raw wood?

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 01:18:50 AM »
Capt, If the sealer is thin enough it will find it's way under the small parts like trigger guard finials and pipes. The buttplate it would probably get under the edges a bit but obviously not the whole thing. You would find out after removing the parts after your done sealing.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 01:26:15 AM »
I seal everything first, with a 1 lb cut of shellac in denatured alcohol or Chamber's oil with a little mineral spirits....let it sit a few minutes and then wipe all the inlets etc.  The shellac has to be sanded, scraped or steel wooled back to bare wood if you are going to use an oil varnish over it,  I like shellac cause it dries in 15 minutes.  .......After the seal coat I install all the metal parts except the lock and apply the Chambers finish coats by hand (fingers and palms) ...one coat per day for however many days it takes. Other than the lock, I don't plan on taking other metal parts off the gun, so if it sticks its no big deal. usually with Chamber's oil I find the parts don't stick anyway. Setting the gun to dry in the sun...as long as it is not too hot ...definitely speeds the process.
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Offline KLMoors

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 03:19:57 AM »
 OK, got it. Thanks Tom.


Offline Pete G.

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 04:39:22 AM »
I use a couple of applications of minwax tung oil finish in all the inlets. It is thin enough to penetrate and not cause any buildup. I do not like the idea of leaving raw wood underneath hardware and do not think that enough finish will seep in to seal the inlet if you apply finish over the hardware. I have seen several  instances of stocks that were treated with Tru Oil or something similar fail under wet conditions. One stock in camp had swollen up to close to 1/16" above all of the hardware. Seal all inlets, especially the areas of end grain, with a thin sealer.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 08:21:17 AM »
Everyone has their ways of doing things. Thats one of the values of this site.
If the part sticks its possible to heat the part with a brass or copper punch heated pretty hot (keep it off the wood) if its massive enough and then free the part as the heat softens the finish.
I ran into this when wet sanding to fill walnut with all the parts in.
If you are careful removing a little finish with a scraper or knife is not that challenging since its much softer than the wood unless using some hard finish.
Those who think that the scraping the finish out is a pain try gluing a little thin piece of wood back into a finished stock. Its a lot more nerve racking. I have done both numerous times.
Yes, wax (I use paste floor wax) works to prevent sticking if you put on finish with the metal in place but I always seal the inletting.

Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 10:24:36 AM »
Neat idea, Dan.  By using the paste wax on inletted parts, you have in effect "mold release" on them. 

Offline rick landes

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 04:59:27 PM »
I would not cut the Chambers oil with anything.
The first coat is to be put on heavy (I use dauber type applicator, like used to be in shoe polish bottles.), wetting everything and letting it have a good soak, re wet any areas that are soaking in the oil. Leave it for about 10-15 minutes. Now take a paper towel and wipe all of the excess oil off of the entire stock. You may want to do 1/2 of the stock (for or aft) at a time.

Leave it dry for a couple of days minimum. A week will not hurt!
Then rub small light amounts of oil over the surface. Push the oil from wet area to dry in one direction, keeping a wet edge. Repeat until all of stock is cover.

Dry it again for a day or two. Repeat about 4-5 times.

Let dry now for about 5 days. Very gently with some rough denim, burlap or even 600 to 800 grit paper gently knock back any high areas, rough areas, etc. wipe off all dust and apply a very thin coat. One will usually suffice.

I am going to say that if you finish is too thick check to make sure it is a fresh bottle of the newer formula. (It was changed about 2 years back) It can be thinned with mineral spirits, but I do not like how it handles as well as the fresh new formula does right from the can.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to develop the feel of the oil keeping the leading edge wet. This oil is not IMHO made to be "worked" into some kind of luster with an unknown part of finger and palm skin flakes dispersed into the finish.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 06:28:39 PM »
I think if you try it you folks will find that aged turpentine is a much better thinner *for gunstock use* than mineral spirits.
Aged turp. 2-5 days (too long and it gets pretty thick) in a shallow dish will actually dry oil faster when its cut off from oxygen as when its soaked into the stock. I have been old that the mix will set in the bottle in a couple of days and though I have not seen this myself the source is impeccable.
The home cooked linseed oil described by myself and others does not work like store bought. No fast evaporating solvents (like mineral spirits) but its still a fast finish. When I read of people taking 2 weeks or a month to finish a stock I wonder if they have looked at this from the standpoint of getting a gun delivered and getting paid for it.
Most of the modern finishes are based on the fallacy that linseed takes too long to dry. But its also based on lack of knowledge of what gunstock finish really was before the chemical revolution struck and were were inundated with all sorts of made in the test tube finishes. In all honesty Permalyn is just a cheap plastic varnish that has no place on a longrifle. But it allowed Bivens to do fast stock finishes when he was making the bi-centennial guns.
These are much superior to paint thinner grade linseed but are inferior to good boiled oil.
From the description I suspect that Chambers and some other finishes are pretty good. But I have been left unimpressed so often in the past I have never bothered to order any.
Most people here can make a lifetime supply of good stock finish with a gallon of linseed, an old deep fat fryer, the few extra ingredients in the instructions (there are numerous formulas for BLO and BLO varnish in this sites archives) and a quart of real turpentine.
As victims of the consumer culture we are programed with the idea that store bought is better than something made at home.
I did this finish in two days, including staining. But the BLO was mixed with Grumbachers Oil Painting Medium III, a cheaters way to make the oil spot resistant. Got to look at the ingredients again I think its all pretty HC too. IIRC its got some di-limonene (sic) :o in it, other than that its HC. I need to get to work an make some HC BLO varnish I guess I keep putting it off.
My regular boiled oil would do the same thing but is less water resistant than the mix since the Grumbachers is a soft oil varnish with Damar and Balsam gums in it.
BUT I polished the stock BEFORE I put the stain on.
If the stock is polished (final grain raisings with 400-600 grit) and the grain raised until it will not raise anymore. Staining with nitrate of iron and neutralizing will not further raise the grain. The stock gets shiny very easily with no built up finish.





Yeah I know they didn't use 600 grit back in the day. They didn't use plastic varnish or mineral spirits either.
Or di-limonene ;D

Dan
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 10:02:51 PM »
I have just started finishing a stock.  Using my THICK boiled linseed oil. The first coat I put on yesterday.  It is mostly turpentine.  Soaks pretty deep, but not much oil there, so it will take a few applications like this to begin to build up.  I also added some transparent red oxide, which gave it a super nice red cast (OK, I could have used a proper natural burnt sienna, but this was handy   ;D ) Sitting out in the sun today.  We're supposed to have almost a week of super nice weather, and I better take full advantage of it now while I can.  I'll leave each application in the sun until I can no longer smell it....and then leave it a little longer just to make sure.  The first coats might take longer, but the final coats probably won't take more than a day or two to dry each.  If you don't make durn sure each coat is dry, if you have the stock out in the sun, and it gets warm, the undried oil will boil up out of the stock.   :o

Turpentine has varnish-like properties itself, and varnish can be made using turpentine as the vehicle, rather than oil.  Never done it, though.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 10:05:20 PM by Stophel »
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Online Eric Krewson

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 10:59:47 PM »
Do you guys finish the barrel channel or leave it bare?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Applying finish ?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 11:50:51 PM »
I don't.  My thought is that if you do get water under the barrel, a finished channel would just hold the water there longer, rusting the barrel.

I do varnish the bottom of the barrel though!   ;)
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