WILLIAMSBURG COLLECTION

[WESTbury]

For those who have never been to Williamsburg or been on their web-site.

https://emuseum.history.org/objects/31405/rifle-in-the-american-style#

[lexington1]

Very nice site. Thanks for posting this.

[blienemann]

This first rifle that pops up is described as a British long rifle made in the American style! Shumway RCA Vol II has this same rifle as # 119, was first assigned to the South, then Wallace had the Bullard family, and more recently it is noted as very similar to John Newcomer's work from just outside Lancaster. What do you all think? Quite interesting that the Williamsburg site still has this description. Bob

[backsplash75]

This first rifle that pops up is described as a British long rifle made in the American style! Shumway RCA Vol II has this same rifle as # 119, was first assigned to the South, then Wallace had the Bullard family, and more recently it is noted as very similar to John Newcomer's work from just outside Lancaster. What do you all think? Quite interesting that the Williamsburg site still has this description. Bob

Bob,
 The Newcomer rifle that is stocked in kind of a British fowler style was acquired by Williamsburg in 1986 and that online database likely has copy/paste of whatever description was entered in 1986 by the curator at the time vs. most current info OR that is the object text that WG and DWB used for the ca. 1995 "Lock stock and Barrel" exhibit it used to be in. 

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/09/colonial-williamsburg-photos_17.html

[J. Talbert]

Bob,
I don’t know how this plays in to your questions about the gun, but curiously, at least to me, the engraving on the very front of the side plate looks rougher and less sophisticated than the rest of the side plate.
Am I imagining things or do others agree?

Jeff

[WESTbury]

My experience with Museums is limited to Springfield Armory NHS.

Some of the items on display are misidentified or have incorrect parts. The staff is very strictly forbidden from correcting these situations. I do not know if this is the situation at other organizations. it is discouraging though to those that have been looking at the same incorrect items for decades.

[blienemann]

Jeff, I agree that the engraving at the front of the sideplate looks bolder and rougher - newer? Same for the tail, the two bits of C scroll and foliage each side of rear screw - and maybe the chip and dot border. I have not looked that closely at all details, and don't know if additional photos are available.

I am interested in further thoughts on where and when made, comparison with John Newcomer's work, other attributions and other research ongoing. This rifle is a very nice and complete package of profile, mounts and decoration. Bob

[J. Talbert]

Jeff, I agree that the engraving at the front of the sideplate looks bolder and rougher - newer? Same for the tail, the two bits of C scroll and foliage each side of rear screw - and maybe the chip and dot border. I have not looked that closely at all details, and don't know if additional photos are available.

I am interested in further thoughts on where and when made, comparison with John Newcomer's work, other attributions and other research ongoing. This rifle is a very nice and complete package of profile, mounts and decoration. Bob

Bob, after my previous posting I looked a little closer and agree about the other engraving differences you point out also.

Jeff

[rich pierce]

I am interested in further thoughts on where and when made, comparison with John Newcomer's work, other attributions and other research ongoing. This rifle is a very nice and complete package of profile, mounts and decoration. Bob

The sophistication immediately brings to mind the signed Newcomer rifle with the (likely later) patchbox superimposed over wrist carving. Particularly, the engraving of the mounts is similar but raises the question, for me: could such a suite of furniture be purchased by a colonial gunsmith complete with engraving?

Unlike Dickert, Beck, and Oerter, it seems we don’t have enough signed Newcomer guns to build a solid argument for attribution.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think we discussed Newcomer in another thread recently but I don't know which one.  I can't speak to the description in the Williamsburg display but the "new" attribution of this piece to Newcomer came after one of the KRA shows ca. 2005-2010; there was another piece on display there which displayed some clear similarities to this, along with a very interesting brass box, and I believe (not 100% positive) it was signed.  My memory is a bit hazy but I do remember viewing it and thinking that the attribution was fairly believable when comparing the two.  It's a very high quality piece but I've never seen it since and no longer remember who owned it at the time.  I don't think it's been photographed either although maybe others here might know.

[rich pierce]

Rifle 15 in The Lancaster Longrifle by Kolar is very similar to the rifle in the Williamsburg collection. The sideplate appears nearly identical. It also is of fowler styling but rifled, and has a nice 2-piece patchbox and a modest cheekpiece. It’s .42 caliber.

Ah I just noted the single triggers on this gun and the one we are discussing on the Williamsburg site are identical.

[WESTbury]

Bob,
 The Newcomer rifle that is stocked in kind of a British fowler style was acquired by Williamsburg in 1986 and that online database likely has copy/paste of whatever description was entered in 1986 by the curator at the time vs. most current info OR that is the object text that WG and DWB used for the ca. 1995 "Lock stock and Barrel" exhibit it used to be in. 

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/09/colonial-williamsburg-photos_17.html

As a point of possible interest, the gentleman in the link below may have been the Curator in 1986.
https://www.antiquesandthearts.com/graham-hood-84-colonial-williamsburg-vp-curator/

[spgordon]

As a point of possible interest, the gentleman in the link below may have been the Curator in 1986.
https://www.antiquesandthearts.com/graham-hood-84-colonial-williamsburg-vp-curator/

Graham Hood's expertise lay in different areas--and as the head of museums and in his endowed curator position probably had nothing to do with the descriptions of these rifles.

[WESTbury]

As a point of possible interest, the gentleman in the link below may have been the Curator in 1986.
https://www.antiquesandthearts.com/graham-hood-84-colonial-williamsburg-vp-curator/

Graham Hood's expertise lay in different areas--and as the head of museums and in his endowed curator position probably had nothing to do with the descriptions of these rifles.

Thanks Scott for the clarification.

The only Curator that I definitely know was connected with the arms collection is, or was, Erik Goldstein. Erik as you may know co-authored with Stuart Mowbray on The Brown Bess published in 2010.

[backsplash75]

I think we discussed Newcomer in another thread recently but I don't know which one.  I can't speak to the description in the Williamsburg display but the "new" attribution of this piece to Newcomer came after one of the KRA shows ca. 2005-2010; there was another piece on display there which displayed some clear similarities to this, along with a very interesting brass box, and I believe (not 100% positive) it was signed.  My memory is a bit hazy but I do remember viewing it and thinking that the attribution was fairly believable when comparing the two.  It's a very high quality piece but I've never seen it since and no longer remember who owned it at the time.  I don't think it's been photographed either although maybe others here might know.

It would be great if a scholarly article would be written with good images and comparisons to make the case for this, assuming that hasn't already been done. 

[utseabee]

Rifle 15 in The Lancaster Longrifle by Kolar is very similar to the rifle in the Williamsburg collection. The sideplate appears nearly identical. It also is of fowler styling but rifled, and has a nice 2-piece patchbox and a modest cheekpiece. It’s .42 caliber.

Ah I just noted the single triggers on this gun and the one we are discussing on the Williamsburg site are identical.

   I believe the Newcomer that you mentioned is also currently part of the display at Rockford Plantation in Lancaster that John Kolar is the Guest Curator of.
   Another rifle in the Williamsburg collection that really caught my eye is the Jacob Bower rifle.

[WESTbury]

   I believe the Newcomer that you mentioned is also currently part of the display at Rockford Plantation in Lancaster that John Kolar is the Guest Curator of.
   Another rifle in the Williamsburg collection that really caught my eye is the Jacob Bower rifle.

Is this the Newcomer referenced above?
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_a__iconic_relief_carved_early_flintlock_kentucky_-lot505594.aspx

[rich pierce]

Yes, at least that’s the one I was referring to.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, that's the rifle from George's RCA book that was noted above, but that is not the piece to which I am referring.  It appears that the rifle I mentioned at the KRA show years back may now be part of the Rockford display which I'm sure is well-worth seeing if for no other reason than to see some really fantastic arms all in once place.  And of course every piece in that display is a Rev War gun.   

[WESTbury]

I am hopeful that they will publish a book for unfortunates, like me, who cannot visit the exhibit.

[spgordon]

I am hopeful that they will publish a book for unfortunates, like me, who cannot visit the exhibit.

https://historicrockford.org/shop/

[utseabee]

Yes, that's the rifle from George's RCA book that was noted above, but that is not the piece to which I am referring.  It appears that the rifle I mentioned at the KRA show years back may now be part of the Rockford display which I'm sure is well-worth seeing if for no other reason than to see some really fantastic arms all in once place.  And of course every piece in that display is a Rev War gun.   

    The one that is at the Rockford display is walnut built like a fowler with a two piece patchbox. The patchbox on this one is kind of similar to the Valentine Fondersmith patchbox. This one is also in the Lancaster Longrifle book from the Landis Valley Museum display years back.
    The Rockford display is well worth the visit. Not all were Rev War, but still a great display. There were several Becks, Dickerts, the Feree Miller Block House rifle, Edward Marshall Rifle, John Rupp, Albrecht, and too many others to remember. There will be a book on this display sometime in the future.

[WESTbury]

I am hopeful that they will publish a book for unfortunates, like me, who cannot visit the exhibit.

https://historicrockford.org/shop/

Thanks Scott appreciate it.

Kent

[WESTbury]

Yes, that's the rifle from George's RCA book that was noted above, but that is not the piece to which I am referring.  It appears that the rifle I mentioned at the KRA show years back may now be part of the Rockford display which I'm sure is well-worth seeing if for no other reason than to see some really fantastic arms all in once place.  And of course every piece in that display is a Rev War gun.   

    The one that is at the Rockford display is walnut built like a fowler with a two piece patchbox. The patchbox on this one is kind of similar to the Valentine Fondersmith patchbox. This one is also in the Lancaster Longrifle book from the Landis Valley Museum display years back.
    The Rockford display is well worth the visit. Not all were Rev War, but still a great display. There were several Becks, Dickerts, the Feree Miller Block House rifle, Edward Marshall Rifle, John Rupp, Albrecht, and too many others to remember. There will be a book on this display sometime in the future.

Thanks for the info on the Newcomer rifle. I'm lucky enough to have of a copy of Pat Hornberger's book which he very graciously made available to me a couple of years ago.