Iron Mounted Incised Carving Long rifle

[AZshot]

Well I got it.  It's got a lot of unusual features, and is a feast for the eyes trying to figure it out.  What I'm seeing is a slim, elegant rifle with simple appointments but from someone who had a good understanding of the architecture they wanted. The pronounced, round wrist and carved lines around the tang would have taken a little more work and care than the average rifle.  The inletting of the single trigger is simple, yet effective.  Where was this rifle made, and what era? 

I'll show the most unusual features first, to try to identify a region.  I see no evidence of a signature on the barrel, which is 46 1/4" long.  In my other post I put what region I'm thinking, but it could be another. I'm just not an expert, but am studying hard to be one one day. I think someone should recognize some of these features.  It also looks a lot older than I'd thought.  The butt is about 1 1/8" wide.  Click for larger. Can an expert tell me if this is as rare as I was hoping?

[AZshot]

A few more.

[AZshot]

Last ones.

[backsplash75]

Interesting rifle. The use of a square nut to hold the tang screw and a slot vs. a proper trigger plate is the kind of thing you see on much earlier English sea service arms and etc. Lock and those big panels has to be 19th century, but other elements are really outdated and conservative.

[AZshot]

Thanks for the reply.  Yes, it's like nothing I've seen.  But I'm not an expert. I appreciate all the expertise on this forum.  Some of my questions are:

1. When and where was that "hump" in the stock behind the barrel breech used? It's on the left side right behind where the barrel and tang meet. Or was it just needed if there was a lot of drop?  I don't find that hump anywhere else yet.
2. Is the double line around the tang any clue to region?
3. Was the nosecap longer originally, to the end of the barrel?  it's got an open end now.
4. Most of the mountings are attached with square nails, nosecap, copper entry pipe, trigger guard.  Does this help date it?
5. Many Southern Mountain Rifles and some lower Shenandoah Valley VA rifles were iron mounted.  Not many iron mounted rifles elsewhere.  Does that verify a general region?
6. I've read that very few southern mountain rifles had carving (found the MESDA Wythe rifle and the John Woods which have similar carving).  Is that true?
7. What is the estimated date?

[okawbow]

I see a southern gun made by an very old gunsmith, a frontier farmer with a little training in his youth, or an apprentice that ran away before he learned everything he needed to know. Early 1800’s?

[AZshot]

I can appreciate that.  I see some skills too, look how thin the overhead view of the butt is, how well carved.  The entry pipe being triangular is pretty nice too.  I'm also thinking first decade of the 1800s, but some of it seems a little earlier. 

[rich pierce]

Based on the lock style this gun could not be before 1810 at the earliest. That it has little buttplate curvature puts it before 1830-1840 for me as a generality. I’d like to know the buttplate width.

I’m not sure if you know of one of the 2 rifles (both) sometimes known as the Whale rifle. One was named for its owner and the other for the shape of the patchbox.  It’s pictures of this latter, carved SMR I’ll share here.  The furniture on this rifle is more sophisticated but it is a fine, carved, iron-mounted SMR. 

[Howard]

This reminds me of rifle on page 233 number 170 of Bill Ivey's North Carolinas book.

[AZshot]

Rich, thanks for showing that rifle, I was not aware of it.  Very nice, much better quality. 
Howard, I had marked a few in that book also.  In particular, #47, #53, #194, and #205.  Some just because they show incised carving, or some other feature that this rifle seems to have. None had all.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I’ve dug into my photo files and notes. I have no idea what this is. I can speculate that it may have been built in the tidewater area of VA. Probably more north than that. It’s pretty “folksy”. Hard to date it. I’d want it to be earlier than 1830. But my gut tells me later. Looks kind of mixed up. The nosecap, triggers and guard conflict with any attribution I’d like to make. It’s an interesting old gun and I like it. I don’t think it is a Tennessee or Western NC gun.

[AZshot]

Thanks for looking at your notes and thinking about it.  I'm still feeling it's from the lower Shenandoah valley, due to the iron mounting and the incised carving.  It looks more like those from that part of VA than anywhere else, but I agree, not a strong match to any.  Yet.  I agree it's not Eastern TN, none of those iconic rifles look like this.

I've just gotten Long Rifles of Virginia by Butler and Whisker and am going though that book now.  Just scanning the approximately 100 non-militia/armory rifles I see about 18 that has single triggers.  Many have a curved tip.  On the trigger guards, I see about 75% are very similar to the one on this rifle.  I see many with incised carving that is similar (but more advanced).  A few are iron mounted.

The butt is somewhat wide, and has a less curved butt than later rifles have.  Not as wide as 1810s, but the triangular butt looks somewhere between those dates.  The iron nails mounting the triggerguard, nose cap, etc, also seem earlier than the 1830s when screws were commonly used.  Also curious is the small, sliding wood patchbox cover, which I've seen a few from VA, but not much north.  The simple trigger guard with the low hand rail and short downward pointing tip also seem early, rather than late.  I'd say it's from about 1825. 

[Dan'l 1946]

 It has a naive, folksy aura about it. Kind of an "ugly but perdy" quality. I like it.  Dan

[oldtravler61]

 Both these guns are both with unique character. It's got features of several areas combined. My guess is it someone who had some experience in gun building and built it to his capabilities and the material on hand.  But then expert I am not... Oldtravler

[AZshot]

Thanks.  I forgot to mention, mine has a highly swamped barrel.  The muzzle width doesn't flare until the last couple inches.

[AZshot]

Thanks to a friend and member who showed pictures of the rifle to some senior VA collectors at The Virginia Long Rifle - a Symposium 2022.  He relayed that they liked the rifle, confirmed a lot of what I was hoping.