Author Topic: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie  (Read 1909 times)

Offline Swede Creek

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Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« on: October 04, 2022, 05:59:07 AM »
OK,   Friend of mine bought over a antique Hawken kit.     Probably dating back to the 70's.    I volunteered to finish it for him.

I think the maker is Markwell Arms.   There is a stamp on the barrel, saying Mendi, Spain.

Anyways... I did some research on these old kits... and did not see a lot of positive notes.    I would like to shoot a proof load through the bugger.. to prove that the thing holds together... BEFORE I go to the bother of finishing the stock, etc.

So.. I would plan to do the strap the gun in a tire, put 50 foot of string on it... to touch it off.    BUT..  want to make sure I put a big enough charge in there to make me feel ok about giving it back to my buddy.

Swede Creek.


Offline L. Akers

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2022, 02:20:39 PM »
in the rare times I proof a barrel, I first decide what my probable "service charge" will be then load a double service charge of powder under one patched ball and fire it remotely.  This is followed by a second proof load of a single service charge under two patched balls.  If the barrel still has all its original dimensions after firing the second proof it's good to go.

Offline DHouse

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 03:42:04 PM »
in the rare times I proof a barrel, I first decide what my probable "service charge" will be then load a double service charge of powder under one patched ball and fire it remotely.  This is followed by a second proof load of a single service charge under two patched balls.  If the barrel still has all its original dimensions after firing the second proof it's good to go.

Wow, Can you really load two patched balls like that? Sounds like a really good proof test! Asking because I have a barrel I want to proof in the future as well. Thanks, Dillon

Offline L. Akers

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2022, 03:56:38 PM »

[/quote]Wow, Can you really load two patched balls like that? Sounds like a really good proof test! Asking because I have a barrel I want to proof in the future as well. Thanks, Dillon
[/quote]

I have never had a problem loading two patched balls.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2022, 06:23:54 PM »
Would be best to put the first one down naked & the second patched properly. This will prevent the top one from moving off the bottom one due to compressed air between patched balls.
Of course, with the normal thin patches some use, there would be no compressed air. You are unlikely to get a good seal without working on the crown.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2022, 08:49:41 PM »
in the rare times I proof a barrel, I first decide what my probable "service charge" will be then load a double service charge of powder under one patched ball and fire it remotely.  This is followed by a second proof load of a single service charge under two patched balls.  If the barrel still has all its original dimensions after firing the second proof it's good to go.

Wow, Can you really load two patched balls like that? Sounds like a really good proof test! Asking because I have a barrel I want to proof in the future as well. Thanks, Dillon

The English proof of the 19th c was pretty severe and they used a special fine grained proof powder.
I never proof barrels in the stock. For a 50 I would shoot a service load through the barrel then double powder and double ball. Just be sure ball 2 is fully seated on the first one.
The proof for Springfield Rifle Muskets was 200 gr of Musket powder and and 500 gr Minie spaced 2” off the powder.
Percussion barrels will need a nipple with a larger hole since unless a special rig is used percussion caps cannot be used.
 58 cal straight  barrel proof, Swamps need different way to secure
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Offline DHouse

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2022, 09:23:08 PM »
Wow, this is very interesting indeed. Wondering if I could double the charge then put two well-seated balls into this Rice 12ga and a long fuse going into the touchhole to proof it.

I only want to prove it because of the dovetailed tenon I put into the underside, as well as a little booboo where I kinda gouged the underside of the barrel as the drill bit passed it while drilling a lockbolt hole.

If the barrel fails I'll be about 100 yards away hiding in my truck parked behind a building. I'd be sad but I'd be safe.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 09:37:58 PM by DHouse »

Offline okawbow

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2022, 09:42:52 PM »
For percussion barrels, I built a test board that clamps the barrels and has a substantial block behind the barrel, so it won’t shoot out backwards. I drill a hole through the handle of a small hammer, positioned so it will fall and hit the cap when released by a string. I mark and measure the barrel every 4” and record the measurements. I use a double load and 2 balls or an equivalent amount of small shot with wads. After 2 test fires, I measure the barrel again. Have never had one change yet.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2022, 12:20:34 AM »
DHouse - make sure you measure very closely, before and after.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Swede Creek

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2022, 05:15:34 AM »
Wow... lots of good advice.    Will load 'er up and let you know what happens!

Offline alacran

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2022, 01:06:31 PM »
I proofed a Getz .69 cal barrel. Normally I wouldn't have bothered to proof a Getz barrel. However, this barrel is only one inch ATF.
I used 120 grains of 2f with two tightly patched .648 balls. I duck taped the barrel to a 4-foot long 4x6. I also screwed a breech stop to the 4x6. I placed the rig behind a small boulder in a creek bed. I made a small mound of 4f powder by the touch hole and duck taped a 4inch long piece of canon fuse leading to it. I was careful to shield the 4f powder when I lit the fuse, then I ran behind my truck which was about 20 yards away.
The load went off about 30 seconds after I got to the truck. It was quite a bang the barrel is only 30 inches long. I de breeched the barrel in my shop and thoroughly inspected it. No problems. This barrel will never see another load like this.
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Offline Hefner

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2022, 06:37:13 PM »
I bought one of those Markwell Arms kits in the late 1970's at a Thrifty Drugstore in Tempe, AZ.  I think I paid about $39.00 for it.  It was my first muzzleloader kit and I think I was afraid to shoot it.  I sold it later and told the buyer that it was a "wall hanger" and not to try shooting it!

Steve Hefner

Offline DHouse

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2022, 08:10:27 PM »
Thanks Daryl I will. I'll measure it all over, and if it moves even a thousandth I'll be back here on the boards reporting back and asking questions, I'm sure! Thanks all this was really helpful.

Offline Swede Creek

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2022, 06:16:48 AM »
Thanks to Hefner for some personal history with this kit.

I will ask my buddy if he wants to shoot or "Hang".   If he WOULD like to shoot it, I'll put it through the Dphariss Torture test

Offline rkrcpa

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2022, 02:09:25 PM »
OK,   Friend of mine bought over a antique Hawken kit.     Probably dating back to the 70's.    I volunteered to finish it for him.

Unless that it the 1870's i have a hard time referring to that as an antique. Old yes, but antique????? :)

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2022, 03:02:13 PM »
After the first test I would check the nipple seat and breech plug for leaks thru the threads or better yet,make the whole gun into a floor lamp.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 03:20:59 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2022, 10:35:56 PM »
A couple of brothers that I went to high school with bought Markwell Arms Kentuckys. I wound up helping them put them together. One would’nt shoot worth a hoot. I seemed to have a spot in the barrel that didn’t twist when you ran a tight patch down the barrel. As it turned out there was no rifling in that section of barrel, and it was wider in that section of barrel.
 So I wouldn’t shoot a double charge in one of these guns on a bet. Pure junk IMO.

Hungry Horse

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2022, 06:23:35 AM »
Wow, this is very interesting indeed. Wondering if I could double the charge then put two well-seated balls into this Rice 12ga and a long fuse going into the touchhole to proof it.

I only want to prove it because of the dovetailed tenon I put into the underside, as well as a little booboo where I kinda gouged the underside of the barrel as the drill bit passed it while drilling a lockbolt hole.

If the barrel fails I'll be about 100 yards away hiding in my truck parked behind a building. I'd be sad but I'd be safe.

My 1896 copy of “The Gun and Its Development” by WW Greener has proof tables. Here is one that may be relevant for a smoothbore. 12 bore rifles, according to the table on the previous pages, used a heavier proof bullet and less powder 1509 (.709”) or 1511 gr (.700”) bullet and 278 or 269 gr of powder. Depending on the exact bore size  these being .729 or .720”. The British used pretty heavy proof loads compared to some on the continent or so I have read. Thin wall barrels should be measures at certain points before and after proof to assure no issues. 
I tape down  or staple the fuse to what ever I am using to hold the barrel and tape it and some prime at the vent.
On tapered or swamped barrels they should only be fixed, I generally use a wood block with a C clamp, at breech and muzzle to prevent bending the barrel by clamping. I usually put a wood block behind the breech as well  firmly secured. Long tangs are more difficult than hooked breech or short tangs.

Be careful. Proof to YOUR satisfaction. Its unlikely a barrel will fail in proof if made of good steel, its also a test of all threaded joints like breeches, vent liners or nipples.





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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Proof Load for .50 cal oldie
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2022, 06:35:40 AM »
And also note that the “rifle” charge listed above may be for a bullet gun. Given the tiem frame.
A .500  bore rifle uses a .480 diameter bullet (these were wadded IIRC)  weighing 715 gr with 205 gr of powder.
 For a round ball rifle of 50 cal I use about 360 gr of lead (two 170-180 gr balls patched) and 180 gr of powder. Given the weight of bullet in the British Chart. I think its for bullet guns.
I consider the bullets and charges in the chart too heavy for a RB rifle, or at least needlessly heavy.
Finally a metallurgist friend and ML shooter claims that proving cold rolled steels really proves nothing. But I am not going any farther with this can of worms. But it needs to be noted.

Dan



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