Author Topic: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here  (Read 5788 times)

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« on: October 08, 2022, 03:30:31 AM »
The first photo is 3 shots at 25 yards as the rifle was sent up by the builder.  Visually the front sight is centered on the top flat and the rear sight is also centered with a hash mark on the sight aligned with a hash mark on the barrel.  Yet the 3 rounds all impacted to the right.  If it was off this much at 25 yards would it be even further off at 50?




The photo below is also 3 rounds at 25 yards but the front sight was moved significantly to the right and the rear sighe was moved slightly to the left.  A much better group.  But check out the next photo.  Point of aim for both was right at the top edge of the spot (12 o'clock) and just down slightly.




So one would feel the sights were in reasonable position.  Now look at how far the front sight had to me moved to the right.  The base of the sight on the right side is actually hanging over the edge of the barrel.  You can see how far it was moved as the finish under the sight blade on the barrel is a different tone.




And here is where the rear sight was.  You can see the hash mark is not in alignment with the the mark on the barrel as it was when built.




I (and husband) just feel something is not right about this.  Visually things looked good but having to make adjustments to this degree seems odd.
In speaking to a few builders they suggested that:
1.  The bore was not true.
2.  The barrel is slightly bent.

So what the opinions of the experts and what do you do to correct it, if anything.  BTW, this rifle was purchased in 2016 from a very well known, "award winning" builder who did say he had not fired it and it was fresh off his bench.  We have shot it very little since purchase mainly because of the frustration above but with some extra time and nice weather hubby says he is going to address it and resolve the issue.  Get it right it get it gone.

36 cal, 3 inch diameter "spot" target.

 

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7106
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2022, 05:09:24 AM »
Is there any chance that the rest you are using is slanted to one side or not ridged?

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2022, 05:24:52 AM »
I would also check to see if the underlugs are slotted and not putting the barrel in a bind.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13865
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2022, 09:34:34 AM »
Molly- most likely, the barrel is either bent, or the bore swings to the left inside, then back to the center at the muzzle. This will make centered sights (as built) to shoot to the right.
It happens. BUT - that is no where near as bad as a barrel I once had - I replaced it with a new barrel.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2022, 01:53:37 PM »
smylee:  Shooting off the same rest as used on all other guns.  I'll pay close attention next time out but hubby does not feel that is the problem.

flinch:  Not sure I follow this one?? Are you saying the barrel could be in a "bind" as a result of the lugs position in the barrel channel?

We noticed something last night as it was being cleaned.  The above photos represent only a small number of shots fired yesterday.  This experiment has been going on for about a week with many other shots fired.  An additional problem is that this gun fouls really bad.  After about 3 or 4 shots the bore must be cleaned.  Misfires are far to common and consequently we have pulled the ball three times this week to clear the globs of gunk.  We noticed that the ball puller which has a collar to fit a 36 shows "wear" on one side as if it is dragging inside the barrel.  When I say wear I really mean that one area on one side is "bright".  So it seems this bright spot is dragging as it is removing the ball??  That would seem to also suggest a bad bore.

As to a replacement barrel.  That sounds easy however even if one got a replacement...same maker, same profile, would it match the barrel channel?

Offline mountainman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2022, 03:51:26 PM »
Just curious what amount of powder charge are you using?

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2022, 04:33:18 PM »
25 gr.

All shots were loaded the same.

36 cal 25 yards.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7106
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2022, 04:57:40 PM »
If its fouling bad I would question patch thickness, weave and your choice of lube. What do the shot patches look like?

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9465
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2022, 05:02:51 PM »
I agree with Daryl. It needs to be bent to bring it to center with the sights centered. This is not that uncommon in ML barrels.  Its possible it was bent at some point in shipping or handling. The outside might be straight and the bore crooked. I would pull the barrel and bend it till shoots to the centered sights.
Modern barrels are generally straightened before and maybe again after profiling. Whose barrel is it. You might send it back and they could straighten it. But a friend of mine sent one back and it was worse when he got it back.
Of if you can live with the sights off center leave it.
You might try running the powder charge up. 25 gr is a little light for a 36 in many cases. In small bores the one grain per caliber is not too far off.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Austin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
  • Austin Paul
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2022, 06:00:39 PM »
These guns a homemade! Ive got a couple that the sights are way off center of the flat to get them to hit where I wanted em toÖ.. youíre fine, donít sweat it.
Eat Beef

Offline Austin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
  • Austin Paul
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2022, 06:01:58 PM »
*are
Eat Beef

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2022, 07:35:22 PM »
Austin, that's a wild opinion ???.  We have probably 12 other "home made" rifles including a Kibler kit and none shoot like this.  It would appear to be the consequence of a defective barrel or, much less, poor workmanship.  If I miss the target I want it to be me, not the gun.


Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13865
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2022, 08:03:40 PM »
Totally agree with Dan, Molly. The barrel needs to be bent to centre the sights. It will not take very much at all.
Does a clean bore "FEEL" smooth?  This fouling buildup has me baffled. My .36, a Rice bl. fouls not at all - shooting all day without cleaning.
I find the smaller the bore, the EASIER the loading is and also the easier it is to load tightly.  I use the same patches in my .36 with both the .350"
ball from an RCBS mould, as well as a .360" commercial balls I bought at Hefley one year. The load easily.
The crown is quite important. This is the crown of my .36.  the "old" end of the thumb treatment turned the machined crown into a smooth one. I
seem to recall 'finishing' this one with crocus cloth, after the 320 wet/dry paper.



The original barrel on this rifle was a non-identified wade land, narrow grooved barrel, that would only shoot an inch & 1/2 50 yards, thus I rebarreled it.
I used .311" and .320" balls in this barrel as well, with the same 10ounce denim patches. It also did not foul.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Frank

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2022, 08:07:30 PM »
I have never had a bent or defective barrel, Douglas, Green Mountain, Colerain, Getz, and Rice. All shot very well. I would contact the manufacturer and request a replacement barrel.

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2022, 01:40:09 AM »
Numerous builders readily acknowledge that, while not common, bent barrels are a reality.  But they are probably not detectible until the shooting stage. A builder who proofs the gun will discover it and correct it before selling.

Offline rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18012
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2022, 01:55:05 AM »
These guns a homemade! Ive got a couple that the sights are way off center of the flat to get them to hit where I wanted em toÖ.. youíre fine, donít sweat it.
Back in the day gunsmiths would check the straightness of the bore, and regulating it was a common practice. Nowadays we assume that modern machining is more or less perfect. But deep hole drilling is subject to small errors. I don't know if many barrel makers check their barrels for straightness and locate their breechplugs so things are up and down.
Andover, Vermont

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2022, 04:21:16 AM »
Molly, what I was thinking is the wood can shrink but the barrel canít so if the tenons arenít slotted enough to allow that movement it could be binding the barrel. If the barrel pins are easy to remove probably not in a bind. I have seen this bad enough to bend the barrel pins.

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2022, 04:37:29 AM »
OK, I follow the idea and I'll check it out tomorrow.  If this rifle were a fly rod we would call it "super fine".  Really slender and long.  Hard to figure the wood could shrink to the extent that it would bend the barrel but I guess it could  however would not such shrinkage draw it down rather than to either side??  I'll look however.
Thanks for the explanation.

But maybe taking into account the pins...it could move sideways.

The fouling is another issue but I'm only good for one problem at a time. Maybe later on the fouling.

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18897
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2022, 02:28:48 PM »
Numerous builders readily acknowledge that, while not common, bent barrels are a reality.  But they are probably not detectible until the shooting stage. A builder who proofs the gun will discover it and correct it before selling.

L C Rice gave me the nickle tour of his end of the production of Rice barrels. This was when LC and Liston were the ones making Rice barrels. I do not know if Jason continues the practice or not but I supect he does.
LC had a huge overhear press that was positioned over the mid-section of a barrel blank that had each end positioned on vee blocks. If the blank did not meet their spec's for straightness, the screw press was used to straighten the barrel. This was done before the barrel was bored/rifled. I also remember he had a heating unit that looked like a large water heater that had a cover on top. A batch of barrels were placed upright into in this unit and heated to a certain degree in order to relieve stress them. It seems to me that LC had a wsy of verifying the bore was straight after the blank had been rifled and stress relieved but can not remember how this was done.

If after boring/rifling these blanks the barrels did not meet specs they were rejected and pulled out of production. LC gave me a 40 cal blank from the reject pile. I  sent it to Bobby Hoyt and had him do a straight taper profile. It was a great shooting barrel. My friend Sam Everly (now deceased) used a barrel from LC's rejects to win a NC State match.

Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Online bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2022, 03:20:40 PM »
First , re the barrel shooting to the right.  My .40 cal A weight barrelled rifle was put in my vehicle by a friend who was " helping" me. He laid it beside a shooting box and then shut the door. It was a compression fit , and the barrel was bent enough to shoot off the target at 26 yards !   It doesn't take much .  I wouldn't blame the builder. It can happen, especially in the lighter weight barrels. Just bend it straight and carry on.
Re the fouling. Flintlock or percussion ?   I'd check the relationship between the vent and the breach face. If too far forward of the face, I've seen them be prone to fouling. One friend has to use a scraper to clean the gunk [ .36 cal ]  off the breach every dozen or so shots.  This could also explain why you are having misfires. Using a bit more powder might help.

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2022, 05:11:09 PM »
bob:  I'll refrain from the term "blame" however this rifle has been given kid glove care and it has exhibited the problems since day 1.  It does reflect back on the builder but had he test fired it he probably would have known and probably would have corrected it.  I do not think we have the capability to determine exactly where and how it is bent but maybe a local builder can so that's probably a better approach that doing it ourselves. I can deal with the fouling but I think you have hit on the most likely problem....and that's been our conclusion all along.

And did I mention that the triggers would not work properly also from day 1?  That was resolved by a fellow shooter.

Barrel, triggers and fouling....but what a pretty rifle.

SO, my lesson is that looking good does not mean it shoots good.

Now, back to the barrel.  If it is "straightened" what is the likely hood that it will fit back in the channel properly.  If the channel were cut to fit this barrel and now it's "straightened" will it fit without further problems?

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2022, 05:12:10 PM »
Here is a video on fixing a bore that fowls easily.


Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13865
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2022, 08:40:06 PM »
We, Len and I used a square piece of maroon ScotchBrite to salvage a friend's .58 at Hefley. Her husband had it for sale because the bore was rough, one end to the other.
He was a "boiling water cleaner" which over the years had etched the bore, one end to the other. We had a sit-down and talk about this.  It took a good 100 passes and 2
of the maroon "laps" to smooth the bore to my satisfaction, but it worked. We used WD40 as a friction reducer, then when done, cleaned the bore in a container of water as
normal.  The next day, the lady shot the entire match without any loading problems and without having to swab the bore even once. She was so happy, she hugged me for
a considerable amount of time. Nice lady. The rifle was not replaced onto her husband's "for-sale rack".
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 01:58:26 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2022, 10:40:43 PM »
If I were charging people to make guns for them I would test fire the guns before shipping.  IF a gun shot that far off I would have straightened the barrel.  I do not think that is an acceptable amount of sight offset.  We have laser bore sighters today.  I would at least check and see if the sights were close to center. 

IF the builder is worth his salt he will make it right. 

Online bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
Re: Sight Adjustments - Is there something wrong here
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2022, 03:20:18 PM »
Molly, the barrel should fit into the stock without any issues when straightened.