Author Topic: A New Hawken to Me (Read 5331 times)

Herb · « **on:** October 08, 2022, 07:38:56 PM »

I just found photos of a Hawken I'd not seen before. It is in Kalispell, MT. Apparently there is a Montana Historical Society museum there, though I did not know about it when I was in Kalispell some years ago.

The top rifle is Jim Bridger's Hawken. The bottom one is the new one. You can have these photos E-mailed to yourself. Or you can order copies of these photos.

https://mhsmuseum.pastperfectonline.com/Search?search_criteria=Hawken&onlyimages=false

Daryl · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2022, 07:49:35 PM »

Nice- tks Herb.

Herb · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2022, 07:56:37 PM »

This rifle has some similarities to one I photographed at Helena. OOPS- I guess it is the same one.

RAT · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2022, 09:42:20 PM »

Samuel Johns was from Kalispell. He's the person who donated them to the museum in Helena. This was probably caused by the way stuff is tagged for searching. It's the same rifle that's in Helena.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2022, 09:56:12 PM »

Interesting old rifle.I have one of those hammers and thought about making a low end lock with it for someone who is wanting
that kind of authenticity. Made several for Tom Dawson in the late 1960's and then forgot about them..
Bob Roller

RAT · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2022, 10:37:02 PM »

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but...

I've been researching this specific rifle since 2017. The museum records indicate that "it is believed" that Samuel Johns purchased the rifle from "F. G. Ellis" while on a gun buying trip to Webster Groves Missouri. I have researched the person I believe originally purchased the rifle from J & S Hawken. I can't find any chain of ownership after his death. His probate records indicate his possessions were sold after his death. Sometimes these records will indicate who purchased an item and what they paid. That's not the case here. I've researched "F. G. Ellis" but can't find a good candidate in the St. Louis area at the time Samuel Johns would have been there.

If anyone wants to help out with the people search, PM or email me. There's off-and-on discussion about some type of publication, so I don't want to post more information on the open forum.

RAT · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2022, 10:40:55 PM »

OK... in reply #3... I stated "donated them". I should have said "donated it". The Bridger Hawken was not owned or donated my Samuel Johns. He did donate a large number of firearms to the museum, but only one Hawken.

Dphariss · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2022, 05:35:08 PM »

Quote from: Bob Roller on October 08, 2022, 09:56:12 PM

Interesting old rifle.I have one of those hammers and thought about making a low end lock with it for someone who is wanting
that kind of authenticity. Made several for Tom Dawson in the late 1960's and then forgot about them..
Bob Roller

PM sent

Dphariss · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2022, 06:50:44 PM »

Just my opinion but this rifle, the “Petersen” rifle and the Atchison Rifle (the silver mounted J&S Hawken) are important examples of the evolution of the Hawken Mountain Rifle. All three, IMO were stocked by the same hand, surely Jake. I am sure the “Petersen” (from the owner at the time of Bairds first book) and Helena J&S were taken to and used in the Rockys by a “mountain man”. The later Hawkens, such as the misdated (IMO) Modena rifle, the Bridger and the Carson are all later, Army Scout or Wagon Train Guide era rifles. I believe the Bridger rifle is an off the rack rifle he bought when hired to guide an Army survey party in the 1850s.
Poster RAT has done yeoman work on research on the Helena J&S, something I lack the patience for.
Just my 2 cents.

Daryl · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2022, 07:38:28 PM »

Note the muzzle is filed out, lands and grooves, to allow loading a snug combination.
This was also a common feature on Jaeger rifles.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #10 on:** November 01, 2022, 04:05:08 PM »

Quote from: Dphariss on October 21, 2022, 06:50:44 PM

Just my opinion but this rifle, the “Petersen” rifle and the Atchison Rifle (the silver mounted J&S Hawken) are important examples of the evolution of the Hawken Mountain Rifle. All three, IMO were stocked by the same hand, surely Jake. I am sure the “Petersen” (from the owner at the time of Bairds first book) and Helena J&S were taken to and used in the Rockys by a “mountain man”. The later Hawkens, such as the misdated (IMO) Modena rifle, the Bridger and the Carson are all later, Army Scout or Wagon Train Guide era rifles. I believe the Bridger rifle is an off the rack rifle he bought when hired to guide an Army survey party in the 1850s.
Poster RAT has done yeoman work on research on the Helena J&S, something I lack the patience for.
Just my 2 cents.

I visited the Hawken Shop when Art Resell owned it and examined a silver trimmed J&S and am wondering if this was the same rifle.
The thing that surprised me was that the lock had a "fly".I removed the lock to examine it and the workmanship was above "average"*
and the silver was an overlay of thin sheet silver over the iron butt plate and trigger guard.I think this was in 1972.
Bob Roller
*Average according to the late Paul Harvey is defined as the "Best of the worst or the worst of the best".

smylee grouch · « **Reply #11 on:** November 01, 2022, 04:49:07 PM »

This is an interesting earlier Hawken that looks to be in good condition. The, IMHO early style lock and breech area look a lot like one that Kenny Leonard had in his collection and I think is now in Chadron, NB. Several pictures of that somewhat Delux rifle are in Jim Gordons book.

RAT · « **Reply #12 on:** November 02, 2022, 02:09:01 AM »

Bob... The rifle pictured here that is in the MT Historical Society museum in Helena isn't the same one you might have examined. This one is most definitely iron mounted. It has several silver inlays, but the hardware is iron, and heavily pitted. It was acquired by the museum in 1959.

rich pierce · « **Reply #13 on:** November 02, 2022, 04:31:08 AM »

It has the features we expect in an 1830s J&S Hawken. Adapted English “shotgun” guard and patent breech of the early “conquistador helmet” style, walnut stock, and thin sheet iron buttplate. I’ve examined one that is very much like this but with a different standing breech and tang.

HighUintas · « **Reply #14 on:** November 02, 2022, 06:10:19 PM »

Are there any contemporary Hawken builds with this style of breech bolster? I wonder how that would be built into the barrel...

rich pierce · « **Reply #15 on:** November 02, 2022, 06:25:13 PM »

Quote from: HighUintas on November 02, 2022, 06:10:19 PM

Are there any contemporary Hawken builds with this style of breech bolster? I wonder how that would be built into the barrel...

It’s a patent breech so the portion with the nipple seat is part of the breechplug. I know a builder who is working on having some early J&S breechplugs machined but the cost is similar to the cost of the barrel because of development and low numbers.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #16 on:** November 02, 2022, 10:45:16 PM »

This one was hand made as was the lock. I think at one time someone had some castings made of this style breech but I have not seen any for sale any place.

RAT · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2022, 03:10:57 AM »

I've coined the term "ETC Rifle" to specify the rifle in the MT Historical Society collection. I'll use that term on this forum whenever this rifle is discussed.

The percussion bolster is forge welded directly to the side of the barrel. It does not have a patent breech. A simple breech plug is screwed into the barrel. The plug has a hook that mates with the standing tang. The inside face of the plug is flat, not recessed or cupped. Dan Phariss confirmed this with a bore scope.

It appeared to me that the trigger guard was fabricated. I suspect it was fabricated by the Hawken brothers.

Dan and I disagree slightly on this rifle... He believes it was stocked by Jacob Hawken. I believe it was stocked and engraved by Samuel Hawken.

I believe I know who the rifle was made for. I can confirm from his probate records that he owned a Hawken rifle at the time of his death in 1839. Unfortunately I can't confirm who the rifle went to after his death. His possessions were sold after his death. I have been unable to establish a chain of ownership from his death to 1959 when Samuel Johns donated the rifle to the MT Historical Society. That puts it in the realm of speculation... not proof.

rich pierce · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2022, 03:22:36 AM »

I get easily confused and think some of the discussion here is about 2 different rifles. This picture appears to be of a gun with a hooked breech. I suppose it’s possible that the front portion is not a patent breech, but oh what a lot of work to have it match the standing breech.

RAT · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2022, 02:30:46 PM »

That's the rifle in Herb's post. I visited that rifle on 3 different days and spent a total of about 9 hours examining it. It isn't a patent breech. It has a simple threaded plug with the rear lug shaped into a hook to mate with the standing tang. We had permission to remove the lock and barrel from the stock.

rich pierce · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2022, 02:36:55 PM »

Quote from: RAT on November 04, 2022, 02:30:46 PM

That's the rifle in Herb's post. I visited that rifle on 3 different days and spent a total of about 9 hours examining it. It isn't a patent breech. It has a simple threaded plug with the rear lug shaped into a hook to mate with the standing tang. We had permission to remove the lock and barrel from the stock.

Thanks! Wrapping my head around it’s construction. Nice job matching everything up.

RAT · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2022, 02:53:27 PM »

This rifle was full of surprises. If you look close at Herb's photo you'll see the wiggle engraving on the muzzle. The museum record says the stock is mahogany... not sure about that... we all thought it was walnut. A lot of mahogany furniture shows up in the probate records for the original owner's family (if I have the owner right). The museum wasn't willing to send a sample for testing. The Tryon stamp on the lock dates to before 1836, when Tryon's son joined the company.

HighUintas · « **Reply #22 on:** November 09, 2022, 09:49:50 PM »

I would think it would take some skill to forge weld that portion of the barrel. I'd like to know if the flash channel is straight or has any bends/angles on the interior. If it is not a straight channel, it would be interesting to know how it was drilled.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #23 on:** November 10, 2022, 12:17:41 AM »

Quote from: rich pierce on November 02, 2022, 06:25:13 PM

Quote from: HighUintas on November 02, 2022, 06:10:19 PM
Are there any contemporary Hawken builds with this style of breech bolster? I wonder how that would be built into the barrel...

It’s a patent breech so the portion with the nipple seat is part of the breechplug. I know a builder who is working on having some early J&S breechplugs machined but the cost is similar to the cost of the barrel because of development and low numbers.

Very low production and low interest and the breech will be costly.I made a few breeches when I helped Bill Large and used a Dremel high speed grinder and small high speed steel burrs were what I used.I don't know if I could make one today or not and I don;t remember it as a hard job but time consuming.It was part of a learning curve and I am glad it was part
of my life.I am amazed to see high grade breech and tangs for these English sporting and target rifles which are much admired but seldom copied.I have seen some of these with superb wood and workmanship and little or no engraving that could be copied by someone with stock making skills.
Bob Roller

Curmudgeon · « **Reply #24 on:** March 15, 2023, 09:07:50 PM »

Has anyone taken barrel measurements, i.e. straight, taper, any hint of swamp, caliber and twist rate?

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Author Topic: A New Hawken to Me (Read 5331 times)