Folding rear sight yardage setup

[flatsguide]

I’m going to need to build a rear sight for the rifle I’m building. Strictly a hunting rifle .58 cal round ball, load will be in the neighborhood of 120 gn Swiss 1 1/2 plus or minus as the target dictates. The sight will have a fixed blade and a folding blade. What do you guys think the sights should be adjusted too ? 85 yards for the fixed and 125 for the folding leaf sounds like that might work but would like to hear from the experts here.
Thank you ,
Richard

[heelerau]

I would be inclined to regulate the sights to my usual hunting ranges, and what you have suggested sounds quite practical. The limit I have hunted with my .50 was about 125 yards max, most of my shooting done between 40 and 80 yards in lightly timbered hilly country.

[Scota4570]

http://ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

I just played around with this program.  With a .61 ball launched at 1450 fps a 100 yard zero works out pretty well to 125.  .  Past that the ball is slow and falling fast.  Even if I made the second leaf for say a 150 yard zero, it get sketchy.  At 125 I am to high and and 175 I am to low.  Folding leaves may be better on bullet rifles then round ball rifles. 

[Hungry Horse]

Practice with your rifle at ranges not to exceed 100 yards and forget about folding sights. Fixed sights are the best for hunting, and range beyond 100 yards is iffy at best. I’ve had this argument in the past, and have reviewed the consequences with both happy hunters, and not so happy hunters. Critters aren’t clangers, a shot in the ear, or a shot in the ass is a miss, because you didn’t kill the critter. Wind drift, trajectory, and lower velocity, make it hard to get a clean kill at over a hundred yards.

Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

this one from Track would work. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/880/3/RS-JAEG-2
My rear sight on the hunting/target rifle, has a folding sight I bought from Brownell's back in '86.  I think they still sell this one. 
Mine is sighted for 50 meters with 82gr. 2F/100 meters with 165gr. 2F, then the next leaf is 100yards with 82gr. 2F and 150 meters with the hunting load. The third leaf is sighted for 150metres with 82gr. and hits dead on at 200, with the hunting load.
This sight used to have a standing sight, that I filed off.
If all leaves are folded, the front bead placed over the rear sight's base, gives the same elevation as the first leaf, ie: 50 meters with light load and 100 with the hunting load.
Note, with a mere 140gr. 2F, the sights are "on" if the above 50/100 and 100/150 & 150/200 are yards, instead of meters.
I used to have the third leaf filed for 300 meters, but changed that when I removed the standing sight.




This is the sight on Taylor's 16 bore Joseph Lang rifle, of 1853.

[Daryl]

This is one Taylor built for his Kuntz rifle.

[flatsguide]

Daryl thank you for the photos.
I think you guys are right about a single sight for a RB rifle. I forgot how loopy the round balls are. Scota4570, how confident are you in that RB ballistic calculator? I know a stiff load in a .58 cal is good for point blank to 100 yards as I hunted a lot when I lived our west years ago. Maybe I’ll save the leaf sight for a later half stock percussion English sporting rifle that I plan to build of around .45 cal with around a 400 grain patch bullet.
This is an old photo  of me and a flintlock.58 rifle I built. Shot him in the early ‘70’s in the Medicine Bow country in Wyoming about a 90 yard kneeling shot. The rifle had a buckhorn rear and a bead front...hard to believe I was that young...Tempus fugit
Cheers Richard

[snapper]

Richard

What do you plan on hunting with it and what would your normal shot yardage be?  What would be your farthest shot that you physically think you would be able to do?

Your plan for the two sights do not seem out of line.

Fleener

[smylee grouch]

I have a 62 shooting a 610 ball out of a 31" barrel that I can get 1750+ fps with 110 + or - grs. of Swiss 1 & 1/2. Shoots about 3 inches high at 50 and can consistently hit a 12 inch gong at 146 with a hold on the top of the plate. This with a single blade rear sight

[flatsguide]

Hi Art, how have you been? I have a bison hunt on my bucket list in the next year or two.
Smylee, that is impressive velocity. I now have a Oehler chrono that I’ll use when I work up a load for the rifle soon, it’s the Chambers English rifle build below this post.
When I finish the stock and get it sealed I’ll start to shoot it and see what kind of accuracy and velocity I can get. If I can get 1750 FPS and good accuracy I should be good to 125yds with one blade, after that I’m not too sure.
Thanks guys,
Richard

[smylee grouch]

Hi Richard: Those figures were I think because I used Swiss powder, a volume measure set at 100 or 110 and a tight combination with bear oil lube. I think the highest figure in the string was 1784. Absolutely devastates deer and black bear.

[alacran]

I made a short barreled jaeger, 25-inch .61 caliber. i have found what I consider its lower velocity load. It is 85 grains of 2f Goex. Elevation wise it is good at fifty yards. I am using a .595 ball with bear lubed .018 tight canvas. I shot the same load at 100 yards and groups well offhand albeit 4 inches low.
I tried 100 grains of 2f Goex but the group went south on me . I plan to work on finding the higher velocity load now that the temps are dropping and can shoot wearing a jacket. I am thinking the Rayl 1 in 72 twist barrel will shine somewhere between 115 to 125 grains and will probably make up the 4 inch drop at 100 yards that I'm getting with the 85 grain load.
Once I find that I will regulate the folding sight to 150 yards with that load. Currently it shoots 3 feet high at fifty yards with the 85 grain load.

As you can see the folding leaf has no finish on it and only colored with a sharpie. Once it is regulated I will rust blue it.
I figure 150 yards will be the practical limit of the open sights in relation to my vision.

[flatsguide]

Hi Richard: Those figures were I think because I used Swiss powder, a volume measure set at 100 or 110 and a tight combination with bear oil lube. I think the highest figure in the string was 1784. Absolutely devastates deer and black bear.

I shoot Swiss too Smylee, 1 1/2F. The barrel has round bottom rifling so it may take a bit of work getting the bullet/patch combo to be accurate with that heavy of a load.

I made a short barreled jaeger, 25-inch .61 caliber. i have found what I consider its lower velocity load. It is 85 grains of 2f Goex. Elevation wise it is good at fifty yards. I am using a .595 ball with bear lubed .018 tight canvas. I shot the same load at 100 yards and groups well offhand albeit 4 inches low.
I tried 100 grains of 2f Goex but the group went south on me . I plan to work on finding the higher velocity load now that the temps are dropping and can shoot wearing a jacket. I am thinking the Rayl 1 in 72 twist barrel will shine somewhere between 115 to 125 grains and will probably make up the 4 inch drop at 100 yards that I'm getting with the 85 grain load.
Once I find that I will regulate the folding sight to 150 yards with that load. Currently it shoots 3 feet high at fifty yards with the 85 grain load.

As you can see the folding leaf has no finish on it and only colored with a sharpie. Once it is regulated I will rust blue it.
I figure 150 yards will be the practical limit of the open sights in relation to my vision.

I’m pretty sure you meant, “3”inches high at fifty yards. Right now I don’t think I’ll need an additional blade to work in conjunction with the fixed sight if I can get 1750-1800fps. A good reason for an additional leaf is the experience of making one, plus they look cool.
Thanks for the info guys!
Cheers Richard

[alacran]

No I meant 3 feet high. I made the blade quite tall, since I never made one before..

[smylee grouch]

An old artillery man eh. 

[flatsguide]

No I meant 3 feet high. I made the blade quite tall, since I never made one before..

Lol

[Daryl]

Back in 1978 in my 34"(36"?), 1 1/8" octagonal Bill Large .58 cal. barrel:
 140gr. 2F GOEX to get 1,736fps with a bear greased .022" denim patch and .575" RB with 69fps extreme spread over 10 shots.
With 160gr. 2F GOEX it produced 1,867fps with the bear greased .022" denim patch and 74fps extreme spread. - with spit for lube, it produced 1,810fps and 8fps spread.
With 185gr. 2F, it did 1,951fps with 42fps extreme spread.
The bear grease always produced more spread shot to shot, then-did my spit. (I've not got it up for sale - yet)
Here is that rifle.

[flatsguide]

Interesting ES difference from spit to bear grease. Wonder why...
Nice phot
CheersRichard

[alacran]

I made my last reply on my phone. I hate typing on that thing, so I did not elaborate.
If the folding leaf was only shooting 3 inches high at 50 yards, it would still be shooting 1 inch low at 100 yards.
I want the leaf on the sight to hit center at 150 yards, which is 5400 inches.
Once I find my higher velocity load, I will set up a target at 150 yards.
 I will aim at a target that is large enough to see so I will probably black the 6 ring on a 7-ring black hundred-yard target. I will do this off cross sticks. Once I have a reasonable 5 shot group, hopefully it will be higher than the center of the target. I will measure the distance from center of group to center of target in inches. I will multiply that measurement by the sight radius and divide it 5400. the result will be how much the folding leaf will need to be filed.
If I shoot at anything at that distance, it will be some kind of improvised rest.






 will take that measurement

[flatsguide]

Alacran, thank you for that tidbit of information. It beats my method of “ by guess and by gosh”
Cheers Richard

[Daryl]

Interesting ES difference from spit to bear grease. Wonder why...
Nice phot
CheersRichard

There is even less difference between oils and water, in my .69 cal. rifle, which shows almost identical velocities & the same point of impact. Point of impact seems to change
more with smaller bore sizes when shifting from oils to water based lubes.  I am calling spit a water based lube.
Most slippery lubes will the difference.  There was even more difference between a water based lube with a tich of oil, and Lehigh Valley Lube, which was VERY slippery.
That was tested in 2 42" bls. The difference was closer to 400fps with the same powder charge, patch and ball, with both 3F and 2F powders.

[flatsguide]

Obviously there will be some experimenting done, not so much the charge weight but the patching. I’m going to start first with hard balls, 16:1 lead/tin as I have a lot of that alloy among other things. Can’t recall if I mentioned it but the rifling is round bottomed and deep, .016” I’d guess so sealing/blow by may be an issues if blowby is a problem and patch thickness is a problem I’ll try felt wads, maybe 3/16 to 1/4 inch with beeswax/tallow melted and the felt saturated with that. All the above is fun for me. My goal is 1800-1850 FPS preferably with 120gns or less of powder. I have a good supply of Swiss 1 1/2 on hand but maybe Swiss 2F May be better?? My main effort will be to minimize blowby.
Moderator should this be moved to the Shooting section?
Cheers guys thanks for the help!ideas and suggestions. Richard

[smylee grouch]

Flatsguide, I think 1800+ is a reasonable expectation with your powder charge when I look at my own tests with 100-110 grs.  How well it groups would be my question and deciding factor.

[flatsguide]

Flatsguide, I think 1800+ is a reasonable expectation with your powder charge when I look at my own tests with 100-110 grs.  How well it groups would be my question and deciding factor.

“How well it groups would be my question and deciding factor”

Without a doubt Smylee!

Cheers Richard

[Daryl]

Deep grooves do not bode well with hard balls.  However, it is not impossible.
My buddy used hard .735" balls in his deep grooved .75 cal rifle, with a .022" patch. They loaded fine and shot decent groups out to 100 yards with from 100gr. to
200gr. 2F. Note the .015" undersized ball, which allowed hard balls to be used.
He used paper ctgs. for hunting, but with the deep grooves, could only get 5 shots with them before needing to load a light charge and wet patched round ball
to clean the bore.
That's how I've done it when using paper ctgs. & hard lead, except I get 10 accurate shots with them before needing a cleaning shot loaded and fired. Then, I
can shoot another 10 paper ctg. loads.
I get similar loading when using hard balls that are .677" in dia. in my .69 rifle.  For paper ctgs, though, I use .682" hard lead.