Author Topic: Lead-free Roundball alternative revisited (Read 11610 times)

axelp · « **on:** November 05, 2009, 01:53:56 AM »

ITX shot is lead-free--I think its about 94% weight to lead. and its relatively soft like lead...

It comes as small as #6, #4 and as large as BB and OO buck. The product looks round, but it has a flat band around the center. I wonder if made at larger sizes. it would be a viable lead-free substitute for roundball? The flat area is no worse than a buffalo ballett... I emailed the manuf. and he replied that they could indeed make larger diameters like .440 and .495.... hmmmmmmmm.

Axe

Old Ford2 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 05, 2009, 04:29:04 AM »

It would be great if ITX shot is comparable to lead, I'm sure cost will be a factor.
Does this ITX shot have the same or similar properties as lead? Weight OK at 94%, slightly higher velocities ( Good) . Does it stick together as lead does?
Hard lead shatters ( too much antimony)
You mention that is soft like lead, would it upset or expand as lead does in a BP rifled barrel?
If yes to some or most of the situations....where do I get some of this mysterious
ITX shot.
Best Regards
Old Ford

axelp · « **Reply #2 on:** November 05, 2009, 04:37:15 PM »

www.ballisticproducts.com

Here is the website. I asked the manuf if it could be melted at a low temp and remolded like lead and they did not respond yet.

This could be a new possible lucrative market for this material--at least in the lead ban areas of California---but yes its not cheap ($129.50 for a 7 pound bag of shot)... But my main concern is, will it penetrate, and shoot as accurate as lead? I have asked them about some samples in roundball sizes in order to test.

interesting...

Ken

axelp · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2009, 04:55:07 PM »

"BPI is your exclusive source of "ITX Shot". ITX shot has density, softness and near perfect spherical formation on its' side. Continuous Metal Technology, Inc., makers of ITX Shot™, appointed BPI as the exclusive reseller of ITX Shot. BPI's ballistic laboratory is currently developing high performance shotshell data for this new pellet that incorporates the density of tungsten, yet designed to achieve an incredible level of softness. Independent testing on the Rockwell "C" scale shows that ITX is significantly softer than present Tungsten-based pellets on the market. In fact, ITX falls below the readable scale of Rockwell "C" (the baseline average of this scale is 27.0). Like lead and bismuth, ITX does not register above 27.0 on this scale of hardness. Other tungsten-based pellets register 29.1 and 31.7 on the Rockwell "C" scale. ITX is soft enough to crush with a pair of pliers. Each individual pellet is precisely formed into a lethal spherical projectile with a mid-band that enhances lethal wound channels. Informed handloaders know that better spheres produce denser, better patterns. ITX offers American shooters the following advantages: *** Non-toxic - ITX Shot is approved for use by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. *** Denser - denser than steel (similar to bismuth shot) for down-range energy and knock-down power far superior to steel shot and numerous other non-toxic materials. *** Stronger - unlike bismuth, ITX won't break up or fracture during the forces of ignition setback. *** Softer pellets - test it with your own pliers! Easier on barrels. More like lead than other non-toxic pellets. *** Lethal Penetration - because of pellet integrity and improved cast pellet design. *** Tighter patterns - and more compact shot clouds - Each pellet is cast in order to be uniform in weight and dimensions. This consistency translates into uniformly lethal down range patterns. BPI load data will be buffered with our new ITX Buffer Blend to achieve maximum pattern density. *** Affordable - ITX is specifically engineered to save you money on your hunting loads while providing superior ballistic performance. This is the first non-toxic pellet to perfectly balance cost vs. performance."

Dphariss · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2009, 06:05:35 PM »

The other answer is to just use lead anyway and/or GET THE BANS LIFTED.

Bans on lead bullet in rifles is pure junk science. If it were going to kill off the Condors they would all be dead now its not as though they were all that viable at the time firearms arrived in California anyway. They have been slowly going extinct since the last ice age.
Giving up the rights of millions of people to save a few examples of a species headed for extinction anyway is silly.

Sorry I am just tired or rolling over and playing dead every time some crackpot comes up with another anti-gun/anti-ammunition regulation. The lead bullet ban has to be fought. Its just another example of a gov't agency bending us to its will becasue they can.
A ball with 94% of the BC of a lead ball is pretty !@*%&@ marginal given the ballistics of the RB to begin with.
I need to buy some more lead....
Dan

Daryl · « **Reply #5 on:** November 05, 2009, 07:16:39 PM »

Quote from: Ken Prather on November 05, 2009, 04:37:15 PM

www.ballisticproducts.com

Here is the website. I asked the manuf if it could be melted at a low temp and remolded like lead and they did not respond yet.

This could be a new possible lucrative market for this material--at least in the lead ban areas of California---but yes its not cheap ($129.50 for a 7 pound bag of shot)... But my main concern is, will it penetrate, and shoot as accurate as lead? I have asked them about some samples in roundball sizes in order to test.

interesting...

Ken

I don't think I could afford to shot much at that price - lets see, for $129.50 plus tax, exchange and shipping, that would be well over $200.00 for 108 balls - nope, couldn't do it.

axelp · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2009, 08:39:07 PM »

remember--these are hunting projectiles, not target shooting projectiles. So the numbers needed would be far smaller... but agreed, at this time, it is rather pricey.

I know we all dispise the idea of a lead ban, and think it is junk science... heard it and said it a hundred times in the last two years... The facts are, a lead ban is reality for a large chunk of the State of California... and it has been looked at for parts of Arizona too. I personally will not break the law--thats just me. It is what it is, until it gets overturned. And it will probably spread further---just like the lead-free waterfowl rulings did.

So if it takes a little searching to find a viable lead substitute, and there is a need, then that adds up to a new market for someone that has the....uh-- lead-free balls to do it.

Ken

bob in the woods · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2009, 12:52:05 AM »

I try to break at least one law a day. Just tore the tag off my mattress. The one that says "do not remove"!
Do they have mattress police yet?

axelp · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2009, 01:29:42 AM »

I tell you what, if I go out in my woods and hunt with lead and get caught-- which one of you will offer to replace my guns and pay my fine for me? Any takers? ......yeah, I did not think so.

As horrible the idea is of losing the right to use lead while hunting large game... its here-- at least where I live. I agree with the idea of fighting it to repeal it or at least so it does not spread any further. ---Be aware folks.

Ken

caliber45 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2009, 02:48:37 AM »

I gotta agree with Dan and all you other sensible folks. California is, by all accounts, LooneyLand. I live next door (Arizona), and don't go there because they won't allow me to use my CCW. I might be tempted to drive to the state line and !$@! across, but there's probably some sort of LooneyLand law that allows them to reach across the border and snatch us ne'er-do-wells from this side and throw us into a cell with the disgusting likes of Hollywood "celebs," et al. I'd shoot lead balls and be !@*%&@. Complying with idiocy-laced laws is silly. Plead ignorance if caught. Heck, anybody shooting a muzzle-loader is a hillbilly anyway, right?

Built-in defense. Like being a Californio anywhere else (OK, OK, maybe not in Illinois and New York or New Jersey . . .), I'd say. Jeeez, how long are we going to have to tolerate this silliness before nature again takes its course, and once again separates California from the US of A and lets it float off to bump against some other continent? (Sorry, you lit my fuses when you mentioned Looneyland . . .) In retrospect, I guess this political rant will be expunged, and no one will read it. Felt good to get it off my chest, though. -- paulallen, Tucson

axelp · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2009, 03:29:27 AM »

ignorance is bliss.

Arizona is the next lead-free hunting zone. Believe me, I hope I am wrong.

In Madera County, our CCW laws are the most gun welcome in the State, thanks to our sherrif. And I beleive that our CCW is legal in AZ....Any law-abiding citizen has no trouble getting a CCW here. I believe there are over 14,000 CCWs in our little ol county alone. Any person that is not law-abiding does not deserve the priviledge of legally carrying a gun. We have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the State... I wonder why?

On a side note, I think its hilarious that some people from other states think that all californios live in skyscrapers, surf, use botox and are afraid of the dark. California has serious issues with its political leadership. A few metro areas with its flaming libs rule the roost... true nuff... Hopefully the next election will cure some of that. Most of California is rural and the people that live and die there are conservative and just too busy living and dying to bother what other folks think or don't think. I'd vote to secede from LA and SF, but I doubt its ever gonna get on the ballot... it is what it is...

cow-a-bunga

kenprather, up in the Central Sierras

Daryl · « **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2009, 04:52:13 AM »

Give it a few years Ken - by the sounds of it, they'll be under water soon anyway.

JCKelly · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:40:33 AM »

Googled it:
"New ITX shot is based on an amalgam of powdered tungsten and iron. It is softer than most tungsten based shot and has about the same density as bismuth 9.77g cm³. It can be used in
older guns and muzzle loaders but it is recommended to protect the shot by using a full length wad cup, thus reducing any chance of barrel wall abrasion."

So it ain't a-gonna cast. I might respectfully suggest forgetting it for muzzle loading balls. 97Bi + 3Sn is about it.

Dphariss · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:45:01 AM »

The problem is everyone (except the anti's) is asleep on the lead projectile thing. That is BS is easily demonstrated but no body bothers.
But most of the time you are trying to counter organizations with and agenda and the idiots that support them. Usually they have more money than the sportsmen types. Some of the sportsman types have been indoctrinated and secretly feel the idiots are right at least to some extent. Such as supporting "assault weapon" bans

There must be a "zero tolerance" on our part or we will suffer the death by 1000 cuts.
This has to be fought when its being considered once its in its too !@*%&@ late in most cases.
The anti-hunting/anti-gun crowd thrive on ignorance and panic.
People have to spend the time to write and call. They have to write letters to newspapers. Running for cover and hoping you won't get busted because you shoot old guns is not going to work.
I consider California lost. If you live there and hunt/shoot etc. I feel sorry for you.
Hopefully the mtn Lions will eat the right jogger some day.

Dan

bob in the woods · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2009, 06:36:09 AM »

IfI am in the woods hunting with lead round balls, and I get caught! Very unlikely, since the arrival of a conservation officer here is just about news worthy. Their budgets are pretty slim. Seriously..if hunting is not legal with lead, how long will we be allowed to spread lead with abandon all over the environment if target shooting? I believe that unjust laws have no rightful authority, and do not feel morally bound by them.
I may have to pay for my actions if caught, but I will go kicking all the way. Non compliance is a powerful statement.

axelp · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:19:23 PM »

Well my google came up with more promising info so I will chase this cow til I see for sure that it wont give milk...

As far as hunting illegally with lead in a lead-free zone? Just like everything else. Its an individual choice and the individual will pay when caught by the right or wrong official. Arizona might only have a few of em, but as you all have alluded to, California has many. The few that I have spoken to are all pretty conservative and think the law sucks, but there are plenty of the others... until it gets overturned, its the law. I am a law abiding citizen. I do not choose to break a law just because I dont like it. That would be a pretty poor example to my teenage kids...You can do whatever your conscience allows you to, and I will do the same. We both will reap what we sow...

I have written multiple times to my elected "officials" about this issue... And I know that the hunting and shooting population of CA is pretty large---larger than many states actually... so we will just have to see.

meanwhile, back at the lead-free ranch....

Ken

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:48:55 PM »

Ken - I understand your stand on being law-abiding - I am too (there are exceptions for 'some laws') & would be fervently seaking alternatives as well. This all brings up the question of firearms suitable for shooting hard projectiles and a smooth rifle might be the 'best' vehicle for the problem.

axelp · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2009, 06:48:11 PM »

Thanks Daryl,

The CA law as i know it is as follows:

NO lead for: deer, pig, coyote or any game animal that you might leave a carcass or the innards out in the wild. And of course waterfowl.
YES lead for: squirrel, upland game, (pheasant, turkey etc) any critter that you tend to take home complete.

This law is in effect in the current and historic CA Condor range. I happen to live on the very north edge of the ban area. a couple miles drive, and I can use lead... strange huh? A smoothie is a good idea... I seem to have better luck with my Chambers Fowler than with my rifles anyway... But I love to carry my Chambers English Rifle...its a shame.

I will keep you all posted. Best, Ken

stuart cee dub · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2009, 09:35:44 PM »

Seems to me the Bevel brithers did some experimentation with lead free pewter bullets melted down from some garage sale mugs . Perhaps looking into a back issue of muzzleblasts might be worth your time Ken.

On a less serious note ..... haunt the local garage sales and pick up an old classic CVA at bargain basement prices ,you know, the ones with the brass joiner.Having that confiscated might be a blessing .It would be like a Zip gun for deer or maybe the liberator pistol.

axelp · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2009, 11:19:58 PM »

Thats interesting, thanks for sharing. Target shooting with lead, is legal all over CA. I wonder if a marble shot out of my .58 would kill a deer or a wild pig...

I am not desperate, and am simply looking and asking... someday they will find a substitute if there is any sort of money in it... we DO still live in the USA...

The challenge is to find a dense, heavy substance that is soft and maleable like lead... and of course the cost needs to be reasonable.

Ken

axelp · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2009, 12:01:48 AM »

I got this back from the manuf of ITX:

"...Your interest in the muzzle loader end
is in the early development stages and still being tested."

Its good to know that people are tryin...

I have a .58 rifle... I might have to try marble shooting...

best, Ken

Pete G. · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2009, 02:16:13 AM »

Have you lost your marbles?

Sorry, I just help it.

I have to wonder about the hard rubber balls bouncing back if they hit something solid, like maybe a rock in the backstop. I've been kind of sensative to the rebound effect ever since I used a knot in a pine board for a target for my Daisy. That was over fifty years ago and I still remember the astonishment of shooting myself.

frogwalking · « **Reply #22 on:** November 11, 2009, 01:11:15 AM »

That is it! I am going to buy some more lead. I knew the idiots would make it illeagle one day, but never thought of them stopping hunters to check their bullets. What next? Making it illeagle to shoot a felon with a lead bullet? I used a sawed off Remington pump shotgun in Vietnam shooting 00 buckshot. I think that was against some law even then. The magazine was 1/4 inch longer than the barrel, and for some odd reason that always bothered me.

axelp · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2009, 03:31:54 PM »

this ban has been in place for at least a year now. Some folks felt that all it needed was once court challenge to have it be thrown out, but its still in place... regardless of what anyone thinks of the science, and the logic, its here and real in 1/5th of CA. And I see it as having a very strong probability of spreading in the next five years to other places where there are endangered species of one critter or another. Lead is the great evil of our day--and a great way to circumvent the 2nd Amendment is to limit the projectiles and make the gun, no better than a fancy club.

So in closing, I think if we can develop lots of lead-free alternatives that work, we can stop the end around play, and reduce their "plan" to mush.

but that is just me.

Axe

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Author Topic: Lead-free Roundball alternative revisited (Read 11610 times)

Daryl

caliber45

Daryl

Daryl