Hot loads ? Or Mild loads ? Accuracy

[Birddog6]

I’ve been shooting ML for many years.   For me finding a good load always seem to fall in too areas. A mild load & a heavy or hot load.   I have always found the best accuracy in the milder loads. For example I shoot a .54 cal most of the time. I shoot 65 gr of 3F in it. To most that is a mild load, but it has always been adequate for paper & killing dozens I’d deer thru the years.
Yet I go to watch others shoot  .50 & .54 cal loads of 90 to 130 grains. Myself, I have never found a heavy load as accurate as a mild load in a ML. Could be just me.

Now were I hunting dif game like big hogs or elk or moose, I can see where that penetration would be necessary. But shooting paper & whitetail that usually only weigh 80-140#, I have never needed those heavy loads.

So.   1:  Do you think there is a mild & heavy good group ?

And   2:  Do you really look for a mild one, or just start at 85 gr & find one on the upper scale ?

[alacran]

I have two .54 rifles. I had others. The 42-inch Ed Rayl barrel has a lower load of 60 grains Goex and a higher load of 95 grains Goex. This is a very light rifle and groups very well with either load. I use the higher load for elk hunting. The lower load for paper and gongs.
The other is a GRRW barrel which is heavy, and the loads are very similar 60 grains and 100 grains of Goex. Again, I use the higher load for elk hunting.
I did have a Green Mountain .54 barrel which was 1and 1/8th ATF which was extremely accurate with 110 grains of 2f. It printed much better than the 65-grain load of the same. This rifle was way too heavy to take hunting.

[Daniel Coats]

My 54 caliber Green River rifle works gun used two loads a single or a double charge of 80 grains. This was back in the 1970s when I had perfect vision but I used a single charge almost all of the time and a double charge for long range. Back then long range was a 300 yard gong which I could ring regularly.

Don't know but I think a lot of the old dead guys probably used one charger and multiples of that either as a single or a double.

[smylee grouch]

A " hot " load with more velocity does not always have more penetration as the ball will upset more and more rapidly thus stopping sooner.

[Bill in Md]

 I commonly used charges of 80 to 90 gr of 2f in 54 cals because that was what was considered proper when I started hunting. Then I started playing around with 3f and lighter charges and will never look back. With the proper patching  and ball fit (the key to BP accuracy) a .54 with a 60 to 65 gr charge of 3f is all you will ever need for hunting and target work in my opinion.

[ScottNE]

I played around with mild and heavier loads of both 3- and 2F in my .54. Definitely seemed like heavier charges improved accuracy. With lighter loads I was getting vertical stringing, which decreased accordingly with each 5 grain bump up to an apparent sweet spot of 85 grains of 3F. Maybe I’m a bit of a wimp but I found that load a trifle unpleasant to shoot. I haven’t had a place to shoot this whole past year, but when I get set up again where I can, I plan to start over and try to find a pleasant, light charge that gives good accuracy.

[smylee grouch]

Some people feel less recoil when using 2f instead of 3f. 

[Prairie dog shooter]

The rate of twist and depth of groves has an effect on the load.  I had a 50 cal Great Plains rifle that was most accurate with 80 grains of 3-f.  I never found a lighter load or a heavier  load that was as accurate.  A 54 cal Deer Creek shot it's tightest groups with 70 grains of 2f.  A 50 cal CVA mountain rifle was best with 60 grains of 3f.  My custom 54 cal Hawken with a Rice barrel (square bottom groves) Is very accurate with 80 grains or 100 grains of 2f or 70 grains and 90 grains of 3f.  The 3f gives faster ignition in this rifle and it is as accurate as 2f. 

Each rifle is different.  The only rifle that did not show good groups with a light and heavy load was that Lyman Great Plains. 

[Daryl]

When target shooting, I usually use the most accurate load in the rifle, In the .69 though, that would mean a LOT more powder than is comfortable shooting a number of shots, thus
for the closer ranges, out to 100yards, I was using 82 to 85gr. of 2F GOEX.  Once I ran out of GOEX and had to switch to Schuetzen (Wano for Germany) I had to find a "new" accuracy load.
The current 50 yard October Postal match found me experimenting (again) & shooting my best group with 113gr. 2F Schuetzen. I did not know what the measure "threw" until getting home and weighing it.
The marking of the measure's rod, indicated something over 100, maybe 105. This was not a difficult load to shoot as you can see by the group of 4 or 5.  As to grouping, this rifle has always shot water based lubes and greases to the same point of impact. Most guns do not, nor do they shoot the same size group with water compared to grease or oils.
Back in the 70's when I started this game, I learned that "loose" ball and patch loads shot best with light charges of powder and when more powder was used, the accuracy went away due to blow-by burning through and burning up the patches due to higher pressures than what the lighter loads gave. Thus, lighter loads were more accurate. As I learned to smooth the crown so I could use denim in .022" thickness and a ball a mere .005" under the bore size, I was able to obtain even better accuracy than was possible before with the looser loads & increasing the powder charge tightened groups further. In all my rifles, I was enjoying much improved accuracy.  The 3 .58's I had at the time were all giving 5 shot groups at 100yards
in the realm of 2" and even smaller. The commercial Italian Zouave, .58 Underhammer H&R along with the .58 Hawken Taylor built me. These guns shot their best with 120gr. 2F in the H&R and Zouave and 140gr. 2f in the Hawken with the Bill Large barrel.
All of these rifles would barely hit the page with any load, if I used the earlier looser loads of the early 1970's.  After I found out how to load the tighter loads, I found better accuracy with more powder, something the loose loads would not permit. Not sure I have explained this well enough, but there it is. Accuracy load development begins at 50yards, imho.

[Frank]

Never saw a need to load more than 70 grains in any caliber up to and including 62.

[smylee grouch]

What is a proper and accurate load? It can bring up some interesting ideas. Some people pic a number and go with it because someone else used that load and its "good enuf".  Some even work up a load and pic the most consistent or accurate combination.  I guess if you think it works for you thats the important part. I enjoy the shooting so experimenting with different combos just let me do more shooting.   

[ScottNE]

What is a proper and accurate load? It can bring up some interesting ideas. Some people pic a number and go with it because someone else used that load and its "good enuf".  Some even work up a load and pic the most consistent or accurate combination.  I guess if you think it works for you thats the important part. I enjoy the shooting so experimenting with different combos just let me do more shooting.   

You can tweak the parameters of a cartridge quite a bit but the thing goes bang just the same, whereas with a muzzleloader tweaking a parameter can have a tangential impact — ie, you go to a thicker patch and improve your accuracy, but that causes loading to become difficult. For some, that’s not a consideration, I know guys who will load so tight that I’d be afraid of the ball becoming permanently wedged in the bore…In their book, loading is a separate issue altogether and how it’s influenced by load development is not considered. I think it’s more common for people to prefer an easier loading patch and ball combo, and there are certainly people who will sacrifice some accuracy for improved ease of loading.

I used to be interested in traditional or historically-accurate loading, which to my thoughts and reading, will tend to be looser. As such I was a “minute of milk jug” shooter. During my life-circumstances enforced hiatus from shooting I’ve developed a stronger desire to find more accurate loads, which I think will involve tighter loads and lighter charges.

[Darkhorse]

So do you think there is a light and a heavy good group load?   Definitely yes.
I usually start off with a mid range load and after I get a good load I will work down until I get good accuracy. Then back up until I find a higher load for hunting that pleases me.
Right now I have a Rice 40 caliber B profile barrel. This is part of a build specifically for turkeys. The lowest I have shot is 30 grains 3F with fine accuracy. The highest I have shot is 60 grains 3F. At 50 yards the 60 grain load will keep it's groups at an inch and under.
I no longer worry about the 100 yard load as where I hunt a 100 yard shot is very rare.
My .54 has a Colrain barrel. So far it's best load is 60 grains. At 30 or 40 grains it shoots with squirrels head accuracy. At 50 yards it will shoot 55 grains to around 2 inches. My usual hunting load is 80 to 85 grains of 3FG. This rifle doesn't have a load that really spreads the group out, to which I am thankful.
Way back when, before my flintlock days, I started out with a TC Renegade. 55 grains was my low accuracy load and I shot the 25 and 50 yard targets with this load. Above that my groups spread but if I loaded 90 grains 3FG it shot around 3" at 100 yards.
To know these kind of things about your rifle(s) you must shoot them a lot. And each shot must be as serious as possible. If not, your skill level will increase very little.

[Dphariss]

Never saw a need to load more than 70 grains in any caliber up to and including 62.

Depends on the use. Where I live flat trajectory is nice since, at least before laser range finders it was easy to misjudge ranges by enough to actually miss a deer completely. BTDT from prone. Don’t even want to talk about the big Bull Elk a friend and I missed, more than once each with BP suppository guns many years ago due to his size and the bright morning sun lighting him up.
In running out turkey matches (paper turkeys) we found that people who shot “target” loads shot lousy groups. If we talked them into shooting something closer the 1/2 ball weight is 45-50 cals the groups tightened up markedly.
My standard load for 54s was 100 gr of FFF Goex and I only had one over the years that would not shoot lights out with it. Douglas or otherwise. I have dropped this to 90 with FFF Swiss. I have a Kibler 54 that is doing a lot better with FFF Swiss at about 87 gr (I think have not weighed it yet) than 83 gr of FF. But I changed ball and patch too so I might go back to the same volume of FF Swiss and see what it does but suspect the velocity will be too low for what I like. But would work for our fun matches.
If you hunt in the timber in the East trajectory is not so important.
But some places its not unknown to crawl 100 yards or more in order to reduce the range. Especially when hunting Pronghorns.

[alacran]

Unless I was Hunting elk in Black Timber all the time, I would not hunt elk with less than 95grains of 2f in my .54s.
70 grains of 3f was a good load for my GRRW.45 flintlock, as well as my .45 Douglass target rifle. But I would never hunt elk with either one.

[Daryl]

Never saw a need to load more than 70 grains in any caliber up to and including 62.

Really? Accuracy is not a need? Well, that's you, this is me.  Had I not loaded the .58's in the manner I did, I would have
 to be satisfied with absolutely lousy accuracy.
With 90gr. the Large barrel shot 9 to 10" groups at 100yards, totally useless, but with 140gr., it shot 1 1/2" to 2" groups.
The Zouave and H&A were similar.  To shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100yards, my .69 needs 140gr. to 165gr. I find the newer GOEX
shot as tightly with less powder. Then GOEX disappeared. Now, I am finding that to get good accuracy at a mere 50 yards, I
require 110gr. of a little more. The current postal match has that data on the working up the load with new-to-me Sheutzen powder.

[Frank]

Never saw a need to load more than 70 grains in any caliber up to and including 62.

Depends on the use. Where I live flat trajectory is nice since, at least before laser range finders it was easy to misjudge ranges by enough to actually miss a deer completely. BTDT from prone. Don’t even want to talk about the big Bull Elk a friend and I missed, more than once each with BP suppository guns many years ago due to his size and the bright morning sun lighting him up.
In running out turkey matches (paper turkeys) we found that people who shot “target” loads shot lousy groups. If we talked them into shooting something closer the 1/2 ball weight is 45-50 cals the groups tightened up markedly.
My standard load for 54s was 100 gr of FFF Goex and I only had one over the years that would not shoot lights out with it. Douglas or otherwise. I have dropped this to 90 with FFF Swiss. I have a Kibler 54 that is doing a lot better with FFF Swiss at about 87 gr (I think have not weighed it yet) than 83 gr of FF. But I changed ball and patch too so I might go back to the same volume of FF Swiss and see what it does but suspect the velocity will be too low for what I like. But would work for our fun matches.
If you hunt in the timber in the East trajectory is not so important.
But some places its not unknown to crawl 100 yards or more in order to reduce the range. Especially when hunting Pronghorns.

Usually 50 yards max in the Pennsylvania woods.

[Roger B]

I was taught that most barrels have a "sweet spot" range of powder charges depending upon caliber & rifling twist. I usually work up loads by getting best accuracy on the low charge side at 50 yds & then work up the scale until accuracy suffers or pain sets in. The low one becomes my target load & the high one is for hunting/100yds or beyond.  I always test the high load to see if I have to hold lower at shorter range for hunting. Usually a .54 with a 66" or 72" twist will " come in" at about 60 to 70grs of FFFg & max out at around 90rs. Go up another 5-10 grs if going with FFg. Each barrel has its own "sweet spot". Also make sure that your patching survives at the high end. I tend to use the thickest patch that works with my chosen ball. After a certain point on the high end you tend to get increased recoil with little or no increased velocity. If you get there, back off. No one shoots a hard recoiling rifle well & the animal or target doesn't know the difference.  Tears up steel targets too, which no one appreciates. Just my experience & others may do better.
Roger B

[Daryl]

What pain, Roger?
My match rifle with 200yard load, being shot in a postal match, at the time.
No pain, just a push.

[Jeff Murray]

I agree with Roger B on the 'sweet spot' theory.  I fired hundreds of rounds out of my 50 cal. (I know its not a 54) and found that different powder brands and different granulations all produced the tightest group at a similar muzzle velocity.  Standard deviation was also better with these loads.  This rifle was happiest with 75 grains of GOEX 2FF.  I could shoot a range from 65 grains up to 105 grains and not lose significant accuracy, but 75 grains produced the tightest group (or an alternate brand/grain size that delivered similar velocity).  For hunting I choose the heaviest load that will give me accuracy out to 75-100 yards.  Sometimes sighting in produced bruises and discomfort, like when working with my 58 caliber, but I have never actually felt recoil when firing on game.  I clearly remember the smoke clouding my view of the game from a shot out of the 58 over 140 grains of 2F but don't remember feeling the recoil at all.  Too much adrenaline I guess.  Never seen an 80 pound full grown deer but have read they live in Florida.  The last whitetail I got weighed and easy 200+ pounds.  The 95 grain charge of 2f pushed the ball through the lungs to rest on the opposite side against the hide at about 45 yards.  I am a proponent of loading on the heavy side for hunting.

[Roger B]

Daryl;
I remember a few years ago you wanted to provoke an attack by a grizzly & run him through with a spear. Yer cornbread ain't done clear through
Roger B

[Daryl]

Daryl;
I remember a few years ago you wanted to provoke an attack by a grizzly & run him through with a spear. Yer cornbread ain't done clear through
Roger B

LOL- your memory isn't quite accurate, Roger. It was a black bear, not a grizzly. You provoke a charge, let him run onto the spear to the cross-tree, then jump aside and lop his head off with a sword.
I fail to see what's wrong with this picture.

[Frank]

Never saw a need to load more than 70 grains in any caliber up to and including 62.

Really? Accuracy is not a need? Well, that's you, this is me.  Had I not loaded the .58's in the manner I did, I would have
 to be satisfied with absolutely lousy accuracy.
With 90gr. the Large barrel shot 9 to 10" groups at 100yards, totally useless, but with 140gr., it shot 1 1/2" to 2" groups.
The Zouave and H&A were similar.  To shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100yards, my .69 needs 140gr. to 165gr. I find the newer GOEX
shot as tightly with less powder. Then GOEX disappeared. Now, I am finding that to get good accuracy at a mere 50 yards, I
require 110gr. of a little more. The current postal match has that data on the working up the load with new-to-me Sheutzen powder.

Always achieved excellent accuracy at these loads. No need to beat yourself up.

[flatsguide]

LOL- your memory isn't quite accurate, Roger. It was a black bear, not a grizzly. You provoke a charge, let him run onto the spear to the cross-tree, then jump aside and lop his head off with a sword.
I fail to see what's wrong with this picture.
[/quote]
That’s what I call “sport”! Daryl, in the photoof you a few posts back what are you “uncorking” what load?
Cheers Richard

[alacran]

Always achieved excellent accuracy at these loads. No need to beat yourself up.
[/quote]
Accuracy is a subjective aspiration. Daryl is shooting a .69 caliber rifle. If you were to ask me what the top load for a .69 would be. I would give you a guess, based on my experience with .62s, of 130 to 140 grains. I am currently working on loads for a .61 and have determined the bottom load at 85 grains 2f Goex. It is very accurate out to50 yards and accurate at 100 yards. But what is the point of shooting a large caliber rifle with pussy loads?