Author Topic: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.  (Read 3306 times)

Offline Oil Derek

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Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« on: October 26, 2022, 10:08:41 PM »
I have heard in olden days that hornets nest material can be used as a wadding under a patched round ball to prevent patch burning and blow by. Would this be a viable strategy for in the field only reloads where a looser patch/RB combo could be used, to facilitate easier loading. Especially with wood rods? Also assuming that accuracy wouldn't suffer greatly.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2022, 11:35:32 PM »
You'll just have to try it, I guess.  I have heard guys claiming that the use of wasp nest was a historical fact, however, I've never see this proven.  Sam Fadala had to use a wad between powder and patched ball to prevent blowby and loss of velocity.  His use of wasp's nest for this purpose in the 1970's was the first time I had ever heard of wasp nest use. This certainly was never mentioned (that I can recall) in Ned Robert's "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle", yet a lot of actual historical facts were noted.
From a practical standpoint, any card wad would work as well as wasp nest and be easier to use as well.  I used a card wad in my 14 bore rifle to protect the powder from the lubed wad, until I experimented with and without and found the wad wasn't necessary.  My chronograph proved this. I've always (since 1974 at least) used loads that sealed & these were loaded with the rifle's hickory rod, for hunting or target shooting. When testing loads, I use a range rod, though, to prevent having to remove and replace the rifle's rod every time I load.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2022, 01:15:33 AM »
I use wasp nest when loading my flintlock rifle for a turkey hunt.  I began noticing hangfires when shooting off that first round after a hunt. I figured gun oil had migrated past the patch or vice versa and contaminated the patch so I tried some wasp nest between the ball/patch and powder.
I don't know if it worked or not as I did some other things at the same time. But I do know the rifle went off quick as can  be with plenty of power. So now I still use it but don't know for sure if it's helping or not.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2022, 02:04:27 AM »
There are felt wads available for this purpose. They’d be consistent.
Andover, Vermont

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2022, 03:44:23 AM »
I use it in my trade gun all the time (when I can get it) but just as an overshot wad.

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Offline Jeff Murray

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2022, 03:49:43 AM »
Seems like a felt wad would be much easier to obtain than a wasp's nest.  I got in a fight with a wasp in the woods years ago who seemed to have it in for me.  Smallest predator I have ever killed with a flintlock.  Nothing left to eat either.

Offline Oil Derek

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2022, 04:21:01 AM »
Thanks for the feed back guys.

Daryl, yes I do believe it was from Fadala that I first learned of it's use, now that you mentioned it. I've used it before in my Great Plains flinter but honestly can't remember that I truly doped it out.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2022, 05:51:19 AM »
If I felt the need to use something, I would use a simple felt, or card wad.  HOWEVER - be dang sure you test it for accuracy.
In my .45, I did some tests long ago, and found the "barrier" card wad opened up my groups at 50yards. At 25 yards, nothing was
noticeable, but the card doubled groups at 50yards. Going up another 10 grains brought back the accuracy.  My 14 bore does not
notice such small changes, but not all rifles react the same to component changes.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2022, 02:07:11 AM »
Finding felt wads is more difficult for me than finding wasp nests. The rafters of my old barn hold a bunch of them and every year fresh ones fall off.
My turkey load has been fully tested. At 50 yards it shoots well under 1.0" groups. I don't use enough to unbalance my load.
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2022, 02:59:04 AM »
Finding ‘on hand’ stuff that works in a pinch is lots of fun but consistent materials produce consistent results, as noted above. That said, once ive found my zero I then look for what works ‘close enough’ for an ‘in a pinch’ replacement. Do that and youll soon find out yourself whether those salty old boys back when bothered using this or that in the ‘olden days’ or not. Some stuff is just trash whether its today or two Centuries ago.

As an aside, Ive found wasp’s nest costs hundreds of fps compared to felt wadding. I think i have a video on BPTV showing that but even the lower fps would through and through a deer or lay a Tom Turkey low so what it means in reality is up for debate. Just know, youre not winning the fatted calf using whatever wadding comes to hand shooting at a mark against an old boy like Daryl. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 04:25:33 AM by Bob McBride »

Offline Oil Derek

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2022, 04:31:39 AM »
Just know, youre not winning the fatted calf using whatever wadding comes to hand shooting at a mark against an old boy like Daryl.

LOL, great perspective Bob, as usual!

... is it okay to settle for that scrawny old holstein cow? lol

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2022, 02:32:50 AM »
Bob, I've been at this game a long time now and I ain't no spring chicken. FYI I would never load this in a match as it's not needed and the chance of introducing a possible inconsistent variable into my process is many years in  my past.
However I have done it with no loss in accuracy or power but have since stopped. Not long ago I heard wasps nest would wear out the bore fast as anything. So that ended that. I do not know if the silica really has that effect or not, regardless it has no place in this premium Rice barrel.
Originally I was only trying to add some information for the OP's benefit, not to convince anyone to use it.
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2022, 03:07:09 AM »
Bob, I've been at this game a long time now and I ain't no spring chicken. FYI I would never load this in a match as it's not needed and the chance of introducing a possible inconsistent variable into my process is many years in  my past.
However I have done it with no loss in accuracy or power but have since stopped. Not long ago I heard wasps nest would wear out the bore fast as anything. So that ended that. I do not know if the silica really has that effect or not, regardless it has no place in this premium Rice barrel.
Originally I was only trying to add some information for the OP's benefit, not to convince anyone to use it.

I dont disagree with any of your points Darkhorse and i didnt mean to come across as replying to your post. I found significant reductions in velocity but didnt test for grouping as i didnt have enough on hand but i did deduce it based on the inconsistencies inherent in that sort of patching. I would be confortable hunting at my distances with hornets nest but as you note, wouldnt try it in a match.

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2022, 09:14:17 AM »
I didn't use it for a patch. I used it between the powder charge and the patch to try and absorb any moisture or oil before it compromised the powder charge.
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2022, 05:07:24 PM »
I do the same as Darkhorse when hunting.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2022, 05:11:20 PM »
I didn't use it for a patch. I used it between the powder charge and the patch to try and absorb any moisture or oil before it compromised the powder charge.

Yea, I misspoke.

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2022, 05:30:27 PM »
I would surmise that wasp and hornet nest material WAS used... Probably by folks in a true frontier setting where it was many miles/days travel back to civilization to trade for goods. Anyone within convenient proximity to a trading post or mercantile probably used commercial offerings or plain old paper or card stock.

Or for less affluent folks, nest material might have worked well enough that any money/trade goods were exchanged for more desired items like tobacco, coffee/tea, powder, lead, etc...

I have no historical sources for this other than my grandmother's adage of "poor folks have poor ways." If it worked and had no monetary cost it probably was used by someone.

Mike

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2022, 10:33:06 PM »
Hornets nest won’t hold a spark. Very few other materials can say that. We on the west coast now know that is important, as did the folks on the frontier that live 500 miles from the nearest fire department. Poor folks think with their head, not their wallet.

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Offline Keith Zimmerman

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2022, 03:34:26 PM »
Wasp nest works great for under and over shot for birds.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2022, 03:05:54 AM »
Someone mentioned ( I believe in this forum though perhaps in the Muzzleloading forum) that the earliest documented reference to using wasp nest was by Kit Ravenshear.
Can anyone site any earlier documentation? Seems everyone believed it’s historical fact that wasp nest was a thing from days of yore but there doesn’t seem to be much first-hand accounts of it…

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2022, 08:14:32 AM »
When did Kit make this declaration on the Wasp nest material, Bob.
Sam Fadala noted it's use in the mid 70's in a book he cobbled together as a means to prevent his patches from burning up.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 07:12:10 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Nessmuck

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2022, 01:07:34 AM »
So....a hornet nest is  flame retardant ?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2022, 01:17:54 AM »
I've burnt a few when hanging in a tree. Did not look to be flame retardant to me.
Maybe different species?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 01:24:50 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Nessmuck

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2022, 01:26:03 AM »
I've burnt a few when hanging in a tree. Did not look to be flame retardant to me.
Maybe different species?

So you could still burn down the Forrest....using it as wadding on top of your shot ..in a smoothly ...

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Hornets Nest Material- Educate Me.
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2022, 01:43:41 AM »
 It might burn, but I’ll bet you put some excelorent on it to get it going. I’ve never seen it smolder after a shot, even on a scalding hot California summer day.

Hungry Horse