Questions on J.P.Beck Rifles

[George F.]

 I'm planning on starting a Beck rifle soon. I read somewhere that he used 2 or 3 rivets to attach his muzzle caps on with. Can someone clarify or correct this for me please?  ...Geo.

[long carabine]

 From my reading and understanding Beck used 3 rivits placed in a triangle to attach his muzzle cap. JP beck is one of my favorite builders. I have seen pictures of his rifles and they look fantastic, very pleasing to the eye. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about te rivits. Tim

[George F.]

Tim, about those 3 rivets, do you think that one each went into the 3 bottom flats? Does that seem how he done his?  ...Geo.

[long carabine]

 I have seen a picture of a  46 cal Beck with the rivits in a triangle in the 3 flats. In my own opunion, JP Beck built some of the most pleasing to the eye Long rifles that were ever built. Most of the ones that I have seen are fancy except one. It was rather plain, not a lot of carving and a wooden, sliding patchbox with plain maple for wood. This rifle looked fantastic! I am a little prejudice to plain rifles. Tim

[don getz]

You guys are becoming too "anal".   I also like Beck rifles.    If you have ever held one, you would realize they are as good as they look.   I'm not sure what makes them "feel" so good, but they are the closest thing you will ever find in a
kentucky that feels like a good bolt action rifle.    I think it might be the fact that the rail of the triggerguard is bent up and
fits tights against the wrist of the gun, making it feel like a pistol grip.    Now, back to those rivets.  I know it's nice to try
to copy a gun, but, to worry about whether or not it has the right amount of rivets holding the nose cap on.....who will
ever pull the ramrod out and say..."that's not right".  Maybe you have to do it for your own satisfaction....whatever...
Don

[northmn]

I have seen a picture of a  46 cal Beck with the rivits in a triangle in the 3 flats. In my own opunion, JP Beck built some of the most pleasing to the eye Long rifles that were ever built. Most of the ones that I have seen are fancy except one. It was rather plain, not a lot of carving and a wooden, sliding patchbox with plain maple for wood. This rifle looked fantastic! I am a little prejudice to plain rifles. Tim

I have pictures of several Beck rifles and would hesitate to call any of them "fancy" as compared to say Melchoir Fordney.  Most of the pictures I have are wooden patch boxes with minimum carving and engraving.  One of the reasons I like Beck Rifles, as others can approach gaudy.  His apprentice Beyers built fancier rifles.

DP

[axelp]

OK What contemporary builder today comes the closest to matching the style and spirit of a JP Beck longgun? Who "knows" Beck better than anyone else today?

Axe

[G-Man]

There have been some super ones posted right on this website in the past couple of years.  I would imagine Bill Shipman has likley built some at if he did, I am sure they are exquisite.  His guns to me just seem to have that look that captures the soul of whatever particular maker's style he is working in.

And Jim Klein has spent a lot of time studying, building and restoring Beck guns and has a great feel for them.

Guy

[George F.]

Thanks for the tips...Geo.

[northmn]

I wonder if some of the attration for Beck rifles doesn't lie in the Lebanon or Lancaster if you will style.  Beck and Dickert rifles seem to attract a certain following.  One of the things I have noticed is that both use large wide and deep butt plates which may help offset some of the weight of the barrels and give them a better balance or "feel"  You see later rifles evole into slimmer profiles both in depth and width.  I have made 13/16" barrels into the later styles and do not find them too awkward, but would hesitate to use heavier barrels.  Even if swamped, this may make a difference.  Also the Lancaster style is more straight lined and ergonomic than some of the other schools.  Although I believe that say a Allentown Rifle can be made to fit, the Lancaster is more straight forward.  My 2 cents worth.

DP

[JCKelly]

Joe Kindig said about the Lebanon School "Three rivets placed at the points of a triangle fasten the muzzle cap to the stock"  and of JPBeck " "Beck's work consistently exhibits the characteristics of the Lebanon School. . . Three rivets placed at the points of a triangle fasten each of his muzzle caps to the stock."
I vaguely recall that Homer Dangler has, or had, a Beck.
& I'm with you, go for the correct details. YOU know the rivets are there, who cares what others think?

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Joe Kindig said about the Lebanon School "Three rivets placed at the points of a triangle fasten the muzzle cap to the stock"  and of JPBeck " "Beck's work consistently exhibits the characteristics of the Lebanon School. . . Three rivets placed at the points of a triangle fasten each of his muzzle caps to the stock."
I vaguely recall that Homer Dangler has, or had, a Beck.
& I'm with you, go for the correct details. YOU know the rivets are there, who cares what others think?

Excellent! And this in my opinion is correct. Beck built a gun to last. The 3 points of contact simply made it impossible for the cap to wiggle. He also designed and built to perfect Golden Mean design. And he was anal about it! But so was his training, and so were the masters of the time. They needed work, and the way they made sure it came back was that theirs was the best! Its okay to pursue "their way." You can learn from it!
Susie

[t.caster]

As some of you recall from previous posts, I am fairly partial to J.P. Beck rifles and have had fun building four of them. Actually the first one I built was very nerve racking because of the enormity of the responsibility to get it right, and on top of that....it was a left hander! Sorry, no pics of that one.
Here are three others I've built since then. If you are going to call it a Beck rifle then I think you should try to capture the carving style of JP and not some new contemporary flourishment I see a lot of. Well, you be the judge if I've come close.

The "Beck sisters" Both fine shooters!


This is my personal test mule/work horse/favorite shooter.


The "Iron Beck"



If anyone is interested, I am now taking orders for Spring 2009 delivery. Please drop me an email with your specific requirements (wish list). Thanks
Sometimes you got to blow your own horn!

Moderator: if this is out of line then delete it at your own discretion.

[Benedict]

Trying to get the details right is part of the joy and interest of building these guns, even if you are only building "in the style of ...".  So when I find out some detail of one of the old masters that I am trying to build "in the style of ...", I try to use that detail.

So in regards to Beck's nose cap attachment.  I can understand using 3 rivets, one under each of the 3 bottom flats.  What confuses me is the use of the work triangle to describe the position of the 3 rivets.  What does that mean?

Bruce

[t.caster]

I always consider the "work triangle" when designing a kitchen, but don't see how it relates to MLs. Three rivits under the bottom 3 flats is the only thing that makes good construction sense. I think someone was just trying to coin a phrase.

I do use the golden mean ratio of 3:5 quite often when in doubt about how to locate or terminate something. From studying Beck, I believe he did too...frequently. But I'm not going to measure something and say it has to be exactly here. It has to be flexible, like.....life.

[Benedict]

Now that we have established where the 3 rivets are, what about what they are made of?  I have learned lately that often when rivets were used they iron where I had thought they were copper or brass.  My understanding is that the nose cap rivet was copper so that is what I normally use but am wondering if it should be something else.  Since this is about Beck, what did he use?

Bruce

[t.caster]

I only think, but don't know for sure, that steel flathead screws were more common, with the head hidden in the barrel channel. They used steel screws & rivits in the patchboxes afterall. Copper wasn't that abundant in gun construction generally. Brass, if used could be filed out to become invisible after peening. Certainly hard to see in those b&w photos unless a ring was left visible for some reason. I wouldn't say "never" to any of the three metals though.

[timM]

Bruce,.......I have a JP Beck that has three rivits that I think are placed as you describe.  They are also made of iron.


Tom,.......Those sisters sure are gorgeous! 

[Benedict]

The copper may have been in regards to later guns but I do not remember where I heard it.  Iron would make more sense in Golden Age guns because it was cheaper than brass and stronger.

Bruce

[t.caster]

Bruce,.......I have a JP Beck that has three rivits that I think are placed as you describe.  They are also made of iron.


Tom,.......Those sisters sure are gorgeous! 

Thanks! They're deadly too They placed 1-2 at our Brothers of the Wind Fall Rendesvous last weekend! Same score....tie-breaker target decided.

Could you post pics of your Beck? Please?

[Stophel]

Really, iron rivets?  I would never have thought.

Usually I see brass or copper.

Now, is the triangle pointing forward, or backward?

[Eric Laird]

My impression was forward, that is, with the butt on the ground, bottom flat rivet is toward the muzzle and oblique flat rivets are toward the butt. Don't recall where I got that, though.

Gee, do you think he used the Golden Mean on the rivet placement? Where's the three and where's the five?

Eric

[D. Bowman]

I do not have a Beck but I do have a N. Beyer rifle, three rivets,iron ,point facing forward.

D.Bowman

[Nate McKenzie]

I recently had the privilege of examining a Beck rifle even to partially disassembling it.The nosecap had three rivits-bottom point forward. I'm not sure if they were copper or rusted iron. Patchbox lid appeared to be cast brass. Carving a little rough around the edges where it transitions into stock. Raised strip along both front and back of patchbox hinge. Back of cheek piece is convex top to bottom- middle is flat-front is ever so slighty concave.This gun is on display at the Montour County historical society in Danville, Pa. and was donated by a member of the Beyer family.

[mr. no gold]

The J.P. Beck wood box rifle (ca 1780) up on my wall has the three rivets holding the muzzlecap. The bottom is furthest back (toward the lock) and the upper ones are forward, (one on each side). It is my opinion that this is pretty standard with Beck, as he built a rifle to last, and that was one way to ensure that it did.
Best-Dick