Author Topic: New Member - Walnut Questions  (Read 3890 times)

Offline PHolder

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New Member - Walnut Questions
« on: November 04, 2022, 04:11:42 PM »
Please allow me to introduce myself.  Long time lurker, finally joined a few weeks ago.  I don't currently have any ML but my father and I dreamed of building them.  He used to refurb antique guns in the 60's.  When I was a kid, most of my friends looked at the Sears catalog, I looked at Dixie's.  Life seemed to always get in the way.

Anyway as I near retirement, I plan on building a Kibler SMR.  I have been agonizing over wood choice.  To me fancy maple doesn't seem right on a SMR.  I have always loved unstained cherry furniture but will it be out of place on a SMR? 

Somehow American Walnut keeps creeping back in my mind.  How are folks finishing walnut?   I've done a search here but a lot of these the pictures are not working.   There's a post by Mitch Yates, aka tallbear , with pictures of walnut he's done with Nitrate of Iron or Aqua Fortis but the pics aren't showing up.   I've seen some with just a finish but it seems to lack depth or any change in color.  I've seen some that look like they've been stained with cough syrup.  Looking for something correct for the period.  I would really like to find some pics of walnut treated with AF, Please?

Anyway sorry for my rambling.  Thank you for your time.

Offline Ridgerunner1958

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2022, 05:03:58 PM »
I finished one walnut stock with Tru oil and did not use any stain.  It did not come out muddy looking

Offline martin9

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2022, 05:09:33 PM »




This is curly black walnut done with AF. It went nearly black so I rubbed it back out with grey scotchbrite. Tung oil finish.     

Online tallbear

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2022, 05:20:54 PM »
I usually use my home made Nitrate of iron stain on American Walnut.I've always like the golden contrasts/undertones I've gotten with it.I lost a bunch of my Photo's when Photobucket went rouge a few years ago but have this one....I'll have to look for more.

Mitch





Offline rich pierce

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2022, 05:29:33 PM »
I think Mitch is the King of Special Sauce!

Always test your stains, is my rule. Dyes are reliable and chemical stains are variable depending on the piece of wood.
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Online tallbear

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2022, 05:52:30 PM »
This is a different rifle than the one pictured about...I'll keep looking for that one.This one is also finished with Nitrate of iron Stain with most likely thinned Mckloskeys Spar Varnish over seedlac for a top coat if I remember correctly(been a few years :).Rich is correct the wood has a lot to do with final results and not all wood finishes up the same......but thats half the fun :)

Mitch












Offline Dphariss

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2022, 06:16:37 PM »
Please allow me to introduce myself.  Long time lurker, finally joined a few weeks ago.  I don't currently have any ML but my father and I dreamed of building them.  He used to refurb antique guns in the 60's.  When I was a kid, most of my friends looked at the Sears catalog, I looked at Dixie's.  Life seemed to always get in the way.

Anyway as I near retirement, I plan on building a Kibler SMR.  I have been agonizing over wood choice.  To me fancy maple doesn't seem right on a SMR.  I have always loved unstained cherry furniture but will it be out of place on a SMR? 

Somehow American Walnut keeps creeping back in my mind.  How are folks finishing walnut?   I've done a search here but a lot of these the pictures are not working.   There's a post by Mitch Yates, aka tallbear , with pictures of walnut he's done with Nitrate of Iron or Aqua Fortis but the pics aren't showing up.   I've seen some with just a finish but it seems to lack depth or any change in color.  I've seen some that look like they've been stained with cough syrup.  Looking for something correct for the period.  I would really like to find some pics of walnut treated with AF, Please?

Anyway sorry for my rambling.  Thank you for your time.

Walnut alway looks best unstained, except in very rare instances. I suspect that most were finished with a soft Linseed Oil varnish or Boiled linseed oil. This finish on Walnut especially will continue to beautify the stock over a period of a week or two as it fully cures. Something that in not nearly as apparent with modern solvent laden stuff that has little or no natural oil.
So far as fancy wood there are some “plain” rifles with very nice wood. One of the prettiest styled original SMR I have seen in pictures was in very curly Hickory. It would have been a beauty in ANY wood. But this is YOUR choice. However, MY choice for a slim rifle is hard maple its a much tougher wood than most/all walnut. The SMR is slim so strength is a consideration. AND if I worry about strength in the wrist I would want plank sawn not quarter sawn. With plain wood it makes no difference that the curl is not as as visible this is a 17 3/4 pound match rifle in plank sawn curly maple.



This is a Kibler SMR with standard wood.



SMR should not be over finished. It should have all the MACHINE marks removed by sanding or scraping. But a super smooth sanding is not correct. In fact if they are sharpened right careful scraping is OK. Just be sure to raise the grain well. Don’t put on too much finish. I make a varnish that I use that is heavily based on Eric Kettenburg’s formula but I give such a rifle a good soaking coat everywhere, in all inlets including the RR hole using a patch on a slotted jag. Let it soak for 10-15 minutes or maybe less, then wipe it all off and I run a dry patch in and out of the rod hole.
If you want you can “bone” or burnish the stock after staining ( I stain maple with Iron Nitrate) wet it with finish then burnish with a metal or hardwood bunisher. But make sure they are very well polished. This, I have on excellent authority will flatten and glue down “whiskers” from staining with a water based stain. i suspect this may have been more common back in the day than we think since it would be faster than repeated whiskering the stock. But do NOT burnish before staining or applying finish this may inhibit penetration.

This is a English Sporting rifle I stocked in what was a very pale piece of American grown European Walnut. The color on the stock is just from the Linseed oil varnish I applied.



This is in processing. I put a light coat on the buttstock to get a better idea of how to lay it out. But it was almost as white as maple without any finish.

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Offline PHolder

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2022, 06:35:48 PM »
Thank you all for the eye candy and the helpful information. 

Dphariss - That standard maple Kibler looks good.  Was it stained?  AF?

tallbear - Thank you for digging up the pictures.


Offline Grischi

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2022, 07:07:26 PM »
I finished this Pedersoli Trade gun with iron nitrate and a few coats of danish oil. The results depend on the curl the wood already has. Fortunately my stock has some. Without any curl it can get really dark and that may not appealing for some people.










« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 07:24:21 PM by Grischi »

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2022, 09:18:39 PM »
These are plain walnut, the Kibler has a little curl.

I like to fill the pores on walnut, in both cases I used Birchwood Casey walnut stock sealer, multiple coats sanded back to bare wood each time until all the pores were sealed. I don't stain my walnut.

The fowler has multiple coats of Chambers finish, great stuff but the shipping runs the cost out of sight.



The SMR walnut has been sealed and multiple coats of Tru-oil applied with a scotch bright pad to give the stock a satin finish.

 



Offline smart dog

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2022, 10:02:35 PM »
Hi,
I am not a big fan of American black walnut because it often has a cold purple-brown tone.  Some will be nicely colored but a lot does not appeal to me at all.  Here are black walnut stocks warmed to look more like English walnut using a wash of pure yellow aniline die.















dave
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2022, 10:18:45 PM »
I've used aquafortis (nitric acid-no iron) with good results on walnut. The individual stick of wood will vary it. I've not tried any weak applications of ferric nitrate crystals.
For simplicity, I've seen decent color on American walnut by just using a cut applications of Laurel Mtn Nut Brown.

Offline PHolder

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2022, 11:08:23 PM »
Thank you all again.  It seems you've have had good luck with walnut.  I guess what has scared me away is seeing some of these.  I've grabbed screenshots from other sites that I have seen to illustrate what I'm trying to avoid should I go with walnut.




I'm not trying to insult anyone, just trying to learn.  These remind me of the walnut you get in plaques or trophies.  The second says they finished with just Permalyn.  Could it be the finish they're using?



Offline Dphariss

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2022, 11:33:24 PM »
And if you use a Ferric Nitrate/Iron Notrate/Aqua Fortis stain be SURE its not adulterated with Hydrocholoric acid. This is NOT good. I think that Kiblers stain it probably OK. But I make my own and I would recommend. If there is any question that a stain be made from Ferric Nitrate crystals and distilled water this is MUCH safer than mixing Nitric Acid and nails and gives identical color to acid made stain.  The crystals are available online if you search. Adulterated stains continue to darken and muddy the grain with time I was told this, too late for one rifle,  by a now passed friend and member here “Mad Monk”,  Bill Knight. Trust me BTDT and its true. I have a test piece of curly maple in the shop that is completely brown from near 25 years  ago.
My issue with staining walnut is that, in general, it will obscure more than it improves. And I have finished some pretty fancy walnut over the years. American, European and Bastogne. I did use some stain on an 1870s Sharps that I  repaired and was stocked with some really pale walnut and then stained with whatever. I finally matched it with a mix of Walnut hull and Butternut hull extract and then oil finish.
If a specific color jsut must be had for some reason then I guess stain is an answer. I tend to let the wood be want it is, using no stain on walnut and ferric nitrate on maple.

These better,, natural light, views of the English rifle.





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Birddog6

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2022, 11:35:46 PM »
I like the Birchwood Casey Walnut Gunstock grain filler. Gives a nice color to the walnut.  When I get it I drop a 3/8 nut in the bottom, and shake the heck out of it or it will try to solidify on he bottom of them.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2022, 01:50:40 AM »
"Walnut" covers a lot of ground.  Some is very open grain and full of pores.  Some can be just the opposite.  Good English is wonderful wood. Walnut quality depends on  where and how it grew.  The same kind of tree grown in rich well watered soil will be much less desirable than a tree that grew slowly and had to work to stay alive.  Walnut will need a filler to avoid having the pores show. 

Maple, is similar.  But not as much variation.  True silver maple compared to old sugar maple will be quite different.  By and large I find maple to be denser and not porous.  Maple is hard to stain until you learn how then it is not problem.  I find maple easier to work on now that I know better. 

I have not used any of Kiblers walnut stocks.  I am sure he uses desirable wood.  You will have to fill the grain.   I have used several of his maple stocks.  They were all excellent with dense strong wood. 

IF I had to choose between maple or walnut without hand picking the blank, I'd choose maple. 

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2022, 02:48:21 AM »
Ive always hand picked All my blanks. I want hard  wood & I like lots of color in the walnut.
From what I have cut myself & when I lived in Ohio, trees in the woods had less color & not as hard & lighter I color. The ones in yards & edge of pastures were the choice ones.  I still have a few blanks
I am going to part with that are real nice.
But on any wood I work with, be it maple, ash, cherry or walnut, I prefer the grain filled. I know that may not be PC, but I am building it to please me.
I had it light, dark, reddish. Yellow & orange streaks.  I like the Looks of walnut more than most
Maple, buy maple is allot stronger

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2022, 05:06:50 AM »
This is the only SMR I’ve ever built and it’s treated with AF and sealed with Tried and True.  There was some sort of walnut mojo thing going on in my head with this gun too.  I didn’t fill in the pores or anything special. I was shooting for super dark and a used look. 




« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 05:16:13 AM by Mike Lyons »

Offline t.caster

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2022, 05:16:04 PM »
I just did a test on the locally cut black walnut I am working on right now for a fowler.
This is one coat of Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis, dried. heated, then one coat of BLO. It turned almost black! I've never used AF on walnut because of this, but it would look about right on a Tennessee rifle. Left side no stain just BLO, right side with AF & BLO. Like they said ALWAYS do test samples because every piece of wood is different.


Tom C.

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2022, 05:38:07 PM »
   If you get a nice piece of wood, walnut will not need any stain. American black walnut is fine for guns that will not have any carving. The pores in the wood can be a problem with any kind of detailed carving. I prefer English or Turkish walnut for the closed grain and because it just looks so much better. But not quite the right choice historically for American rifles and it can get extremely expensive.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2022, 06:04:26 PM »
And like almost any other wood, variations of color may vary significantly.
Here are two pistols, both Black Walnut. Each got the same finish of the same boiled linseed oil and wipe-on varnish.
It's always a little adventure at finishing time   ;)

« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 06:12:14 PM by Bob Gerard »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2022, 08:43:04 PM »
I have only one walnut stocked longrifle, my Thomas Allison copy.  I bought the stock with barrel from Chris Laubach right here on this site.  I used no stain or pore filler, and just tung oil finish.  I was hoping that more of the wonderful colour of the blank would show up, but I'm still pleased with the result.





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Offline Daryl

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2022, 03:54:57 AM »
I stained this pistol's stock with a Hardware store walnut stain/filler. The stock turned black, so I sanded it back to wood with 1,500grit wet/dry paper and just used
True Oil for the finish on this black walnut stock.








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Offline Deepcreektexasshane

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2022, 05:36:54 AM »
I had a brand new rifle with an American Walnut stock. It was nice but needed character so I made a mix of boiled linseed oil and minwax “Gunstock”  which is reddish. Then followed up with 2 more coats of plain BLO. Really Woke up the grain and coloring.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 02:53:38 PM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: New Member - Walnut Questions
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2022, 04:47:09 PM »
I bet that all of these guns would look totally different in color than their picture if they were all showed together at one time in the sun. The camera that was used on the individual owners picture will show up differently because of lighting - camera lens - and other influences you see in there message. Take the pictures as a reference guide not what is the true color shown. 
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