Author Topic: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project  (Read 27397 times)

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2023, 03:22:12 PM »
Hi Smylee,
They are the same keys that will be used and pinned to the stock.  They are just shy of 1/16" thick.  They don't become loose later on because the wood swells with stain and finish.  If anything, they may become too tight. The other point, Smylee, which I wrote about earlier is that it is the metal to metal fit that provides the pressure on the key, not the wood.  That is why wide lugs are preferable.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Hank01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • Let's build a classic 18th century English style double barrel sporting gun!
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2023, 04:25:26 PM »
Impressive! looking forward to seeing it finished.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2023, 05:53:50 PM »
Fantastic technique of burning the keyhole smooth. How did you even discover it?

Hi Bob,
I learned it from a discussion on the ALR site maybe 15-18 years ago.  We had a discussion about how British gun makers sometimes burned components into their mortises as a final fit.  It smooths and almost polishes the edges of mortises for an exact and tight fit but with less chance of chipping off wood on the edges when removing the part.  I think Taylor described the burn method for barrel keys years ago.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7677
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2023, 06:32:17 PM »
Thanks for that explanation Dave. I have a couple slots to do on an Turvey inspired gun and this info will help.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15078
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2023, 08:35:52 PM »
Dave, that is Taylor's method and I remember that conversation/thread posted here, many years ago.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3108
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2023, 08:52:20 PM »
Dave, whilst I had originals kept in my possession for a number of years, looking for evidence of burning in keys was one thing (im sure there are many more) I failed to ever examine. 
Is there material or written evidence to suggest that was common practice in English gunmaking?

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2023, 11:28:42 PM »
Hi James,
I certainly see no evidence of it on any of the original 18 century fowlers I own but my late flint era gun has slots that are a  discolored around the edges inside and could easily have been burned in.  If I remember that old thread, there was no consensus that burning anything in was a common practice by the British makers.  However, someone provided photos of an original gun in which it sure looked like the standing breech was burned in.  I do it with the barrel keys not because it was the way British makers do it but because it works so well particularly when you are not installing escutcheon plates so the slot shows. 

dave     
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3108
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2023, 12:07:22 AM »
Thanks Dave.  I couldn't remember or find the old conversations.  I thought I remembered someone who had seen evidence on a gun or guns.

Online Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18064
  • AKA TimBuckII

Online Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4297
    • Personal Website
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2023, 01:20:24 AM »
I think this may have been a discussion largely with myself and Jim Westburg.  I don't recall the specifics, but I think we both had experimented with heating parts to a fairly low temperature to help get the perfect fit on the last tiny bit of inletting.  I recall using this technique on the forward guard finial of the Harman inspired fowling piece I made.  I recall him mentioning using it on some lock inletting, I believe.  I also think he concluded that he'd seen evidence of this on 19th century, ultra precise English work.

Jim

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2023, 02:34:37 AM »
Hi James and Jim,
Thanks for chiming in.  Tim, it was a different post.  We always have to be careful when discussing British work because it changed over time.  I believe it is always important to provide a time period just as we do for long rifles.  For example, the high end silver mounted fowler by Heylin that I bought from James Rogers shows excellent workmanship but much the lock mortise is rather roughly inlet.  Not the edges but the guts. It is well done but nothing compared with the work you see on early 19th century British guns.  My 1820s fowler by Fields is a good quality gun but nothing like the Heylin, yet the inletting puts the Heylin to shame. I don't think you could do better quality work with computer assisted machinery and this was a fairly ordinary gun.  Procedures and standards changed over time.  I suspect if final seating parts by burning was used much, it was during the 19th century when there seemed to be a demand or standard for supremely precise fitting of parts even in places that never show.  There is another aspect to this that you all might consider.  I am speculating here and from a broader view of British trades but hear me out.  In America, there was always a shortage of highly skilled labor.  That was partly due to the British discouragement of value added industries in colonial America.  We were to provide the raw materials to Britain, which they manufactured into goods that were then sold back to us.  This was part of the mercantilist system that Adam Smith criticized so much in "Wealth of Nations".  We took to machinery much faster than the British despite many of the pioneers of powered machinery being British.  It was because we had to supplement our dirth of skilled hand labor.  In Britain, particularly in the gun trade, there was a wealth of skill and talent doing hand fitting and fabricating, and they were very antagonistic to any mechanization in the industry.  The gun industry in Birmingham alone was the largest in the world. The vast numbers of British gun workers could do by hand what machines in America did by automation.  The extreme division of labor aided that result.  I believe part of the effort for precision in hand work observed in British guns even of middling quality was an effort to show the workforce could compete with the machines.  That battle continued right up to our Civil War when Birmingham makers combining some machine manufacturing with a lot of hand labor made fortunes supplying the north and south. Yes, they adopted machining for some of the tasks but nothing like the Americans.  So in conclusion, it might not be surprising to observe British gun makers using methods promoting precision at little cost of labor, like burning in, during the 19th century but not during earlier periods.   

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3364
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2023, 09:38:33 AM »
A very good reply Dave.
For myself, having looked at a good many British guns, I have as yet to see any evidence of burning in.

Best,
R.

Online Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4297
    • Personal Website
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2023, 05:10:49 PM »
A very good reply Dave.
For myself, having looked at a good many British guns, I have as yet to see any evidence of burning in.

Best,
R.

I kind of feel the same.  But just to be clear, I highly doubt you would ever notice what we were talking about unless you specifically were looking for it.  What Jim Westberg and I were discussing is not heating to a red color and burning in.  It is a much lower temperature and really doesn't cause much discoloration.  He concluded the process was used in the 19th century largely from the ultra precise lock inletting that showed absolutely no tool marks, but rather a smooth polished appearance.  He worked out a process where he was able to replicate this with low temperature heating.

Jim

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7677
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2023, 06:34:44 PM »
I have a Harris Holland side by side 13 bore that appears to have this done on the inside of the forearm. It is almost glass smooth and polished looking.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2608
  • NYSSR ―
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2023, 07:33:54 PM »
Kind of like ironing the wood. I suspected something of this nature, I wonder if they had dies. It would also temper the wood to some extent.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2023, 04:01:13 PM »
Hi,
Another milestone day; inletting the ramrod pipes.  We got them all in Tuesday afternoon.  We did the forward pipes first. After marking their positions, Maria marked and drilled holes for the tabs.







Then she used small flat chisels to outline the edges of the slot for the tab and simply runs a carving knife down the middle removing wood for the slot. 





Then she saws the rest of the wood away with our little saw made from a needle file.



The pipe can now be inserted with the tab in the slot and she outlines the pipe on the stock with a pencil.  She stabs in the ends with a tiny flat chisel and the rest of the wood is removed with small gouges.  It was a beautiful sunny winter's day today as you can see through the window.  We spent some time outside playing with Willow.  The shop is a really pleasant place to work on days like this because the natural lighting is so nice.







She uses inletting black to mark the high spots and cuts them away until the pipe sits down properly.






So much for the easy stuff.  Now the rear pipe.  An advantage of our 2-piece soldered rear pipe is that we can heat and pop the tang off.  Then we just have the pipe to do first.  This is a huge advantage.








Next we reattach the tang and inlet it gradually toward the rear.  When inletting the tang, get the inevitable "pinch" point at the step almost fully inlet before cutting the mortise for the tang. The pipe will rock back and forth about the step if you don't and you may mismark the tang outline as a result. Get the tang down flat on the wood before marking it.  Maria did a first class job on her first rear pipe.

 





We trim off the tabs so they are flush with the barrel channel and then will drill for the pin holes.  To be clear, Maria is  doing all the work.  I buzz around like an annoying bee teaching her how to use the tools and methods but mostly I get out of her way.  Occasionally, I do a task while she watches so she sees how I do the job but then I just hand off the tools and let her go at it. 

dave
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 04:06:48 PM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Hank01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • Let's build a classic 18th century English style double barrel sporting gun!
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2023, 01:51:15 AM »
Maria is for sure quite capable of doing the work. Who knows, she may become the 21st century Jane Frazier.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline runastav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2023, 07:11:31 PM »
Hi all!
Maria is very lucky who have a Master Gunbuilder(Kloke Hund) to teacher! Think most of us is self taught good luck :)
Runar

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9751
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2023, 07:45:14 PM »
I applaud and congratulate you both.
I lend a hand to the inexperienced. Sometimes, as you well know, it runs into hours. But SOMEONE has to do this.
Unfortunately two of them are older than I.  Having someone this young having the INTEREST and getting good advice its just wonderful.
I consider this faint praise to you both.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2023, 02:33:51 AM »
Hi,
Thank you all for your support. Dan, "faint praise" from you is enough for me.  It is a privilege to teach a smart, dedicated young person like Maria.  It is no burden, rather a real joy.  She will be headed to Ohio in March to study under Ian Pratt and Ken Gahagan as the young gun maker scholar.  Also teaching like this crystalizes in my mind what I know and don't know.  If a method cannot be explained with reason and logic, you cannot teach it to a smart person.  It is like the old story of the woman who cuts the ends off her ham before baking.  When asked by her new daughter in law why, she responds that her mother always did it that way.  When the mother is asked why, she says she had to cut off the ends because during the Depression she only had a tiny oven and the ham didn't fit. Knowing why you do sometime a certain way is often as important as knowing how to do it.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2023, 03:23:29 AM »
Hi,
Got more done.  I forgot to mention that the ramrod pipes get larger in diameter toward the muzzle. The rear pipe is 5/16" inside diameter, the middle pipe is 3/8" inside diameter, and the front pipe is 27/64" inside diameter.  That will accommodate a robust tapered and swelled ramrod while preserving a slim appearing gun.  Maria drilled the pin holes today for the pipes.  We opted to drill 2 holes for the first pipe, which suffers the most stress and leverage when the ramrod is removed and returned.  We also positioned the hole for the rear pipe a little toward the back, which tends to anchor it and the tang better.  No jigs or milling-drilling machines.  We just hold the drill level and perpendicular by eye and drill.  We mark the bottom of the pipe measuring from the ramrod groove walls and then drill a little above that line.

 




The holes came out very well.  Next we drilled for the tang bolt so we could position the trigger and trigger plate.  We just draw a guideline on the side of the stock, find the center of the hole in the tang, hold the drill level by eye and aligned with the guideline, and drill it.  The hole is undersized so we can make adjustments if needed.  It came out well but needed a slight adjustment with a round rasp to center it on the bottom of the stock.



Finally, we located the trigger slot, marked it and drilled a series of holes, and then routed out the wood between the holes with a router bit on the Dremel Destroyer.









Needs to go a little deeper.

Done!  We leave it at that for now.





dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15078
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2023, 08:30:09 PM »
Absolutely marvelous.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6830
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #122 on: February 15, 2023, 06:28:11 AM »
Hi Folks,
This may seem like a boring post but there is really good information here if you read it carefully.  Maria and I installed her trigger plate today.  It was not as simple as you might think.  The trigger plate is cast steel and sold by TOW for fowlers.  It is a fine plate and goes well with the trigger we are using. The problem is the trigger position is wrong if you are using a round faced English lock whether by Chambers or Kibler.  Both of those locks are too long and would be more valuable for a much greater range of guns if they were 1/4" to 3/8" shorter.  Anyway with those big locks and a standing breech, the trigger position is so far back that the tang bolt from the standing breech has to enter at an angle divergent from perpendicular to the tang.  You cannot push the extension on the trigger plate too far forward because it will interfere with the lug on the trigger guard.  So to make this work, Maria and I had to make a lot of modifications.  The first step was to move the trigger back in the trigger plate and fill the extra slot in front of the trigger.  We did that by drilling holes to the rear of the slot, cutting and fileing away the steel so the trigger could move backward, and then welding steel to fill the slot in front of the trigger.
 




With that accomplished, Maria inlet the trigger plate after filing draft on all edges.  She began by inletting the thick forward extension first.



Then the rest of the plate could sit down against the wood after she beat it with a hammer.  She traced the outline of the plate and cut the mortise.







Once in, we then drilled and tapped the plate for the tang bolt.  It was a tiny bit off center but will work just fine.







Next, we fitted the tang bolt.  To make everything work, the tang bolt had to enter the tang of the standing breech at an angle and not perpendicular to the tang. That required we counter bore the bolt head rather than simply counter sink it into the tang.  To do that we turned the head of the bolt such that it had flat sides and 5/16" diameter, then drilled the hole in the tang with a 5/16" drill a the appropriate angle.  The hole is drilled deep enough to form vertical side walls.  Then the bottom of the hole is counter sunk with a 5/16" counter sink that matches the angle of the bolt head.  We counter sink it until the screw slot is aligned with the barrel and the head of the bolt sits down deep enough so when filed flush with the tang, has a deep enough screw slot and substantial thickness to be able to file the head to fit the angle of the tang.










It all came out well and eventually the tang bolt head will be filed flush or slightly domed and engraved.  Good days work.

dave

« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 06:36:52 AM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15078
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #123 on: February 15, 2023, 07:15:56 AM »
Nice!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Hank01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • Let's build a classic 18th century English style double barrel sporting gun!
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #124 on: February 15, 2023, 09:35:02 AM »
True craftsmanship -gun making at it's best.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.