Author Topic: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project  (Read 29492 times)

Offline Dwshotwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2023, 06:34:08 PM »
She will be working on a rifle at the workshop with Ian and Ken.  I believe it will be a copy of RCA #46, the famous Albrecht rifle he probably made in Lititz, PA.  We will finish that rifle in my shop as well.

dave

Oh man, I was registered for Ian and Ken's class and have all the parts to build the Albrecht, but had to drop out due to a broken leg. Mine will have to wait until next year.

As mentioned earlier, looking at originals is very helpful, and last year at that class was my first hands - on experience. I think there were 25 original and contemporary rifles and fowlers on display and it was a huge education to get to handle them.
David Shotwell

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9613
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2023, 08:19:22 PM »
She will be working on a rifle at the workshop with Ian and Ken.  I believe it will be a copy of RCA #46, the famous Albrecht rifle he probably made in Lititz, PA.  We will finish that rifle in my shop as well.

dave

Oh man, I was registered for Ian and Ken's class and have all the parts to build the Albrecht, but had to drop out due to a broken leg. Mine will have to wait until next year.

As mentioned earlier, looking at originals is very helpful, and last year at that class was my first hands - on experience. I think there were 25 original and contemporary rifles and fowlers on display and it was a huge education to get to handle them.

I make no claims to be a rifle builder but when I started getting interested in muzzle loaders in 1951 there were only antiques seen and most of them were not in good condition.Handling and closely examining old ones is the only way.I restocked a wrecked full stock rifle in the wood work shop in High School and built 2 half stock styles in 22 caliber and a retired charter pilot called me several years ago and said he had one of them.P.I.Spence made the lock and 3 years later I met him and he gave me a sheet of 1075 spring steel.He was about 95 then and owned a machine shop that was then dormant.Smart Dog has a treasure with Maria and she obviously is a quick study on the use of tools and that in itself along with her interest in the long guns is indeed a good thing.
Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #152 on: March 12, 2023, 03:02:51 AM »
Hi Folks,
More done today.  We really pared back the stock closer to final form.  Ouch, I got a splinter!



Maria's dreams of becoming a hand model have been quashed by this project :D.  Rasping away wood.




I showed her how to shape the subtle "schnable" at the muzzle end of the stock.  It will eventually be thinner and more subtle when we are done.  Many guys shape this way too extreme.  It is subtle.



Next, roughing out the lock and side plate panels.  Using a 1/4" gouge to cut the tight radius cove around the front of the panel but a much shallower sweep to cut the shallow cove angling down from the barrel channel, which she then smooths with round scrapers.






We also shaped the breech area of the stock giving it an elegant design typical of well made fowlers from the time period.  Here is where we are.  Note how thin the wood is on the sides of the barrel channel.  It will get thinner yet. Look at the extra length of the barrel keys.  They were flush with the wood when we started today.























The flats around the lock will become vanishingly small when we are done.  We just leave them for now. Next up, we figure out the trigger guard and shape the bottom of the lock area. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #153 on: March 12, 2023, 07:57:41 AM »
Her stock-work is really turning out fine...the forend is really looking good with no noticeable whoop=de=doos and not bulky. It would be great to study under a master and have that kind of guidance.
Cheers Richard   

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15587
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2023, 09:00:54 AM »
Gotta love that humped tang.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2023, 03:20:12 AM »
Hi,
Well our last session before Maria heads to Ohio for the rifle workshop with Ian Pratt and Ken Gahagan.  She needed a leather strop, so we made some.  I had a perfect sized piece of old-growth Sitka spruce from Alaska.  This is wood in which within the 2" width of the piece there are 73 growth rings. Anyway, my strop made for me by my dad 40 years ago is pretty beat up and needs the leather replaced, which I will do.  However, I decided to make one for myself too.  I have good heavy leather and away we went.  We cut the chunk in half thickness wise and shaped the strops with the band saw, rasps, and belt sander. Then we placed double sided carpet tape on the top, cut the leather to fit, and applied it to the tape, burnishing it down with a steel ruler.  We coated the wood with Sutherland-Welles tung oil wiping varnish, let dry, and then charged the leather with green rouge polishing compound.  The nice thing about using the carpet tape is you can remove the leather when cut and worn and replace it easily.
 


We are at the point where the side plate needs to be inlet.  Maria really likes the silver side plate I made for my personal fowler shown below.
 


But here is the rub.  Her gun is supposed to represent one exported from England and owned by a NE colonist with the means to purchase such a modest gun.  They were not particularly expensive and many were acquired but they would not be mounted in silver and the decoration would be much more modest.  So we discussed designing the appropriate decoration and casting it in brass. However, Maria really wanted iron or steel mounts rather than brass.  So that presented us some tradeoffs.  We could explore her decorative ideas more fully with non ferrous metals but if she insisted on iron or steel, our options were much more limited. She wanted steel mounts so I went with that and used her decision to create a series of teachable moments. The trigger guard will be a post itself so I won't go there right now.  The side plate needs to be inlet now and Maria and I had to resolve the issue. She could not have a sculpted plate like on my fowler because that would be really difficult and time consuming made in steel.  Moreover, it is not appropriate for the modest gun she is making. So we opted for the side plate offered by Chambers for their English fowler and English rifle kits. Unfortunately, it is not a perfect fit.  So we made some changes. The tail of the side plate dropped too low.
   


We changed that by cutting into the side plate with a jeweler's saw. Then heated the plate at the juncture red hot and bent the rear up at the cut with pliers.  That did the job.  We also added some details to the side plate to make it look a bit more sophisticated.  Then Maria, filed the edges and made it ready for inletting.












When she comes back from Ohio, we will inlet the plate.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2277
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2023, 01:16:11 PM »
Outstanding  job you two are doing. Thanks for sharing the journey with us. It’s alway a pleasure to see a talented young person”s work. Congratulations to both of you.
 Bob
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 02:36:55 PM by BOB HILL »
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #157 on: April 05, 2023, 03:12:26 AM »
Hi Folks,
Kind of a long hiatus as Maria attended the Canter's Cave rifle making workshop with Ken Gahagan and Ian Pratt.  She had a great time there and really appreciated the instruction by Ken and Ian.  Maria fully recognizes the opportunity she was given and came home a much better gun maker.  She just cannot stop smiling thinking about Ken's Formula 1 driving of a Walmart motorized shopping cart or Ian's bonzai riding of the wheeled carts in the shop.  It was an experience she will never forget.

Back in my shop, it was time to inlet her fowler side plate.  Maria had previously refined the plate and filed draft on the edges.  Now it was time to cut the mortise. First, she scribed the outline of the plate using my inletting knife.

 


Once lightly scribed, she stabbed in the borders. 





Then she back cut the edges and removed the wood from the mortise, which is only about 1/16" deep.







And she was done.  This was the first side plate she ever inlet.  She had one small chip come out near the tail of the side plate, which we will fix.  She did a superb job.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15587
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #158 on: April 05, 2023, 03:15:21 AM »
WOW - have to have patience for that quality of work.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3393
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #159 on: April 05, 2023, 05:35:35 AM »
Very neat work Dave.
Congrats to you both!!

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3695
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #160 on: April 08, 2023, 03:23:55 AM »
Good gracious.  That is a heck of a first sideplate to inlet, and she did a commendable job.  Please share my appreciation with Maria.  What a team.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9613
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #161 on: April 08, 2023, 06:53:04 PM »
WOW - have to have patience for that quality of work.

The patience of a statue and the skill of a surgeon.How long did this take.Any error in a cut here would stand out like a goose egg
in a bucket of coal.
Bob Roller

Offline Mgray

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #162 on: April 10, 2023, 04:44:11 PM »
WOW - have to have patience for that quality of work.

The patience of a statue and the skill of a surgeon.How long did this take.Any error in a cut here would stand out like a goose egg
in a bucket of coal.
Bob Roller

Bob Roller,
It took me about 5 hours total. Lots of time spent fretting and wanting it to be perfect, taking a break to have a cup of tea and talk history with Dave, and time spent playing with the dog, which subtracting that all gets the time down to a little less than 4 hours I believe. (The 4 hours is also counting re-drilling and tapping for the rear lock bolt as well. That took some time as the bolt was not cooperating and we had to pick and thread a new one.)

-Maria

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15587
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #163 on: April 10, 2023, 07:25:05 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Maria. ;)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2023, 02:55:20 AM »
Hi,
Thank you all for looking and your encouragement for Maria.  Today we started cutting the lock moldings.  The Brits did not fuss over them like some Germanic makers and modern makers.  They did not worry about tight and precise cove moldings, complicated details with respect to the beaver tails or nose of the lock panels.  They did not even worry about the panels being symmetrical or even tying them in with carving around the standing breech.  Typically, the molding was prominent around the tail of the lock and the tear drop beaver tail, but often just faded out as it approached the nose of the lock panel and the bolster of the lock near the breech. 
 








So on Maria's gun, we followed the same style.  We finalized the macro shaping of the lock and side plate panels and then penciled in the outside border of the molding surrounding the lock. 
 



Most modern builders seem incapable of producing authentic lock moldings for English fowlers.  They just cannot conceive how thin they were on mid 18th century guns. Anyway, I am teaching Maria how to get them right.  After outlining the molding, Maria stabbed in the edges and removed the background.
 










She did the lock side and then started on the side plate side.  We transferred the outline of the moldings to the side plate side by making a rubbing of the lock side and using it as a template for the other side.





The lock bolts registered its position on the other side.  Then she traced it and drew her guidelines for the side plate moldings.  On most British guns the moldings are not mirror images but they start and stop at the same places on the stock.  We ended the day with Maria starting to cut the molding on the side plate side.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline grouse

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2023, 03:12:24 AM »
That is outstanding workmanship,I'm inching to see the end results.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15587
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #166 on: April 12, 2023, 09:03:16 AM »
Yeah- not only this, but her next build!! :o
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #167 on: April 12, 2023, 04:03:17 PM »
Maria, it does not get any better than that.
CheersRichard

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3393
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2023, 04:13:35 PM »
Lovely work Maria!
You have a top flight teacher!
With it fixed i your head how a gun Should look, you will know in an instant if a gun is 'off" or not.
As Dave suggests, there are many that are 'off'.

It must be a great pleasure to Dave, to have an apprentice as smart as you!   

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #169 on: April 16, 2023, 04:01:06 AM »
Hi folks,
Thanks for supporting and encouraging Maria.  I know many on this forum would like to hear from her but she is so busy.  She has 2 more months of high school including band, chorus and running the school newspaper. She works 3 days a week at a horse stable, 2 days at a restaurant, and 2 with me.  She quit varsity basketball to work with me. When she has time she is reenacting with Warner's Green Mountain Boys and sewing her 18th century kit. As you might imagine, she does not watch TV or waste her time with computer games.  She leaves those useless distractions for the "boys" she knows. Anyway, we made more progress finishing her gun.  You can see how elegant it will be.

 










We moved on to the trigger guard.  The commercially available trigger guards for English fowlers are pathetic.  There used to be a small bowed urn finial guard sold on all the major sites and by Chambers.  It was the only guard that met any historical standards. All the others had bows too big and in the case of the acorn finials, they looked to be designed by shriveled, myopic, Mr. MaGoo.  Pathetic.  I found a supplier that still had the smaller bowed urn guards in steel and I bought 3.  I might just buy them out.  However, even that guard lacks certain historical details.  The most important is the bow should be egg shaped not an even oval.  The egg shape creates a lot of space in front of the trigger for your finger.  The photo below shows 3 guards.  The top is the currently available version with oversized bow. the second is the raw guard before we altered it, and the third is our altered guard for the fowler.


 We had to move the forward lug further forward to avoid the trigger plate. We cut it off and welded it in place at its new position.  I tacked it in place to hold it, then welded a fillet on the one side.  Then I gave it to Maria to weld the fillet on the other side.  She did a fine job for her second weld.



Here she is shouldering her gun.  An elegant gun to match the owner.

dave



« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 04:05:04 AM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15587
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #170 on: April 16, 2023, 04:41:31 AM »
Keep up the good work, young lady!!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9613
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #171 on: April 16, 2023, 11:54:36 PM »
Keep up the good work, young lady!!

Yes!How many of US at 18 years of age had any ideas about making such a gun and if we did, would we have done it.The restocking of a banged up antique I mentioned was done when I was 17 and the 22 caliber guns when I was 18.The first serious muzzle loader I made was
at age 22,a half stock 58 caliber rifle that was very accurate and looked like a Northeastern gun with its dark walnut stock and silver buttplate and trigger guard.
  Maria has demonstrated skill prompted by an unusual level of interest and we all should compliment her on her ability to find and use the skills she may have not been aware of until she picked up tools and did it.Keep it up,young lady,You have Brains,beauty and skills to do any thing you set out to do.Go for it!
Bob Roller


Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #172 on: April 28, 2023, 03:33:52 PM »
Hi,
Our work slowed down a bit owing to Maria's schedule.  She inlet the trigger guard and here lies a tale.  The selection of trigger guards for English fowlers has hit rock bottom these last few years particularly ones cast in steel.  The selection from the main suppliers is very limited and I don't know what hardware they copied, but it doesn't look like anything I've examined on original guns. The trigger bows are too large and misshaped.  I found one supplier that had steel guards with small ribbed bows and the husk finial.  They used to be readily available but no more.  I bought 3 and now they are no longer listed. Anyway, Maria inlet the trigger guard.  Before she did, we had to shape the bow into an egg-shaped loop rather than an even oval. The top guard is the current commercial offering that is large and has no ribbing on the bow.  The middle guard is the smaller version we used to be able to get.  The bottom guard is the same but reshaped and prepared for inletting.



Cast steel guards are a pain because the steel remains springy even when fully annealed.  Unlike brass guards, you really have to bend them in vise, often using heat while bending to get them to set down on the wood and even then the steel fights you.  With annealed brass, you can usually push the guard down on to the wood with your fingers. We start by filing a recess on the bottom of the front of the guard where it overlaps the trigger plate.  That allows the guard to set into the wood mortise despite the trigger plate being almost flush with the surface of the stock.  Then we cleaned up the guard and filed draft along the edges. We also curved the front finial slightly in cross section, and hollowed out the underside to conform to the stock.  Finally, we moved the front lug further forward to avoid the trigger plate.

We start by cutting in the the slots for the lugs.  She drills 3 holes in a line, cuts the ends and sides of the slot with flat chisels and then removes the bulk of the wood with a router bit in a Dremel.  It is best to cut the rear 2 slots so there is excess length in the forward end because as the guard is pushed into its mortise, it tends to migrate forward.  Maria inlet inletting the front finial first.
 




I know this guard gives some folks pause but it really is not hard to inlet with the aid of small stab in chisels and small skew chisels.  The mortise is only about 1/16" deep, just enough to mostly cover the edges of the guard.  It is foolish to inlet this kind of guard before the stock is pared down to its final profile. Once the front is in and pinned, she begins to cut the rear mortise.  It is best not to outline and stab in the edges of the entire rear of the guard in one shot.  Just do the forward 1/3, set the guard in a little, then trace the next 1/3, cut it in, and leave the rear 1/3 of the guard until last.  That way, as you push the guard into the mortise and it migrates a little forward, you don't end up with a gap at the end.
 
 





We pinned the rare lug but did do so for the middle lug.  Unfortunately that lug sits right where the screw should be for the wrist escutcheon plate.  We are going to consider 2 options for anchoring the plate. The easiest would be to just pin the plate to the wrist and pin the guard lug.  However, another option is to install the screw entering from under the trigger guard that usually attaches wrist plates on English fowlers and have the rear guard lug simply hook on to the head of that bolt.  Maria has to cast her wrist plate so once it is made, we will decide on our course.  In the meantime she finished most of the stock shaping.
 











Then we took a tea break, sat down, enjoyed the scene and talked British guns while examining a pair of original Wodgon dueling pistols. 



Green Mountain Girl trying to decide if the pistols fit better in her left or right hand.

dave


"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2220
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #173 on: April 28, 2023, 05:21:10 PM »
Dave, when I started making MLs, all I had to go on was Dixon's book.
if I would have had this wonderful tutorial, I would be years ahead. Excellent job. Congratulations to you both.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline taterbug

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #174 on: April 28, 2023, 06:03:22 PM »
haha!  Impressive, and formidable, young woman.  Whether wielding inletting chisels, or a pair of pistols! 

And also encouraging to hear that at least some younger people are looking for activities that are more rewarding and long-lasting than just video games and (dis)social media.

Well done to you both!