Author Topic: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project  (Read 29493 times)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15587
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #175 on: April 28, 2023, 07:03:19 PM »
An amazingly inspirational thread!! 8)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #176 on: April 30, 2023, 03:43:53 AM »
Hi,
We started carving the shell around the barrel tang. That will be the only carving on this gun, as it should be.  First, we did a paper rubbing of the carving on the Heylin fowler in my possession.  We just did one half.  The Maria traced the rubbing on to card stock using carbon paper.  Next, she cut out the card stock tracing and we taped it on the stock.
 


The Heylin design is a little too wide and long for Maria's stock so we traced the shell on the stock but contracted the forward decoration to fit her stock.  Here is the fully traced design on the stock. 





We may simplify the forward ends if they are too busy and don't really fit well.  The Heylin barrel is wider at the breech so we have less space in which to work. It may be that we have simple tendrils going forward that fade out in a simple scroll.  Regardless, Maria stabbed in the current design. When I stab in an intricate design, I walk the tiny stab in chisel forward along my line by always making sure the rear edge of the chisel is in the incised line I just made and then rocking the tool forward to create a new segment of stabbed in line. That way the line is smooth and continuous rather than jagged.  Maria acquired that skill very quickly. 
 




After stabbing in the outer edge of the carving design, she relieved the background.  She likes my palm chisels so I started her using a small palm skew chisel to remove background. 



However, my method of teaching is to let the student work with a tool for a while to discover its strengths and weaknesses, and then I introduce a new tool for comparison.  That way they learn the differences and develop their own preferences.  In this case, I introduced a full length skew chisel to Maria for removing the background.  I have very strong hands but severe nerve damage in my fingers. I cannot position full length chisels very quickly like palm chisels so I use the latter. But that is me and Maria is different. She quickly discovered that she likd the full length skew chisel much better.  It gives her more control and power.






Finally, for tight sections, she still needed small chisels like this tiny skew.




Her outlining came out great and we are on our way.  Not to bad a start for her first carving.

 



She will ouline the inner edges of the carving and then we will leave it until after whiskering the stock.  When that is done, she will carve the details just prior to staining.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #177 on: April 30, 2023, 06:45:49 AM »
Outstanding work for her first time. She’s getting a solid foundation in craftsmanship.
Cheers Richard

Offline Hank01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • Let's build a classic 18th century English style double barrel sporting gun!
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #178 on: April 30, 2023, 01:22:12 PM »
That 'lil gal definitely has talent. If talent isn't there any level of coaching proves futile. No doubt she is getting excellent coaching. Maria is not only creating a finely crafted fowling piece, she is creating memories that will last a lifetime. 

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Ardito

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #179 on: May 05, 2023, 12:37:48 AM »
This is so cool. Wish I’d had access to a mentor like you in high school. Can’t wait to see the finished gun.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #180 on: May 07, 2023, 02:53:00 AM »
Hi Folks,
Thank you all for encouraging Maria.  She made her final choice on May 1 to attend Siena College in NY.  An exciting milestone for her.  Today we began making her wrist escutcheon.  I loaned her my old copy of Great British Gunmakers by Neal and Back and she used it as inspiration for her own design.  Here is what she came up with.



It was ambitious and I warned her she would need to carve that complex of acanthus leaves at the bottom.  I suspected rightly that it would present an obstacle but that is part of learning.  So we went forward with her design and took a slab of green carving wax, hollowed out the back and glued it to a piece of PVC pipe. Then we rounded the top as well.  When  that was done, we glued her paper pattern on the wax and she pricked the main lines and details into the wax through the paper using a needle held in a pin vise handle. When that was done, we removed the paper pattern and she carved the outline of the escutcheon in the wax.
 


Unfortunately, carving those delicate leaves caused a break in the thin wax at the bottom and another break occurred at the top.  No worries, wax can be repaired by melting more wax on top.  We decided to just lump some extra wax on some of the fragile leaves and carve the details after casting the plate in silver.  Metal is stronger and can preserve fine details better.  So she finished the wax as best she could and then we carved/chipped it off the PVC.
 


Next, Maria made the Delft clay mold.





Then we heated sterling silver in a crucible using my oxy-acetylene torch and poured the mold.



 It took 3 tries to get it right.  I could not figure out why it did not work the first time.  I was using sterling silver melted from sheet silver and had some problems with it in past castings. On the third try, I added 50% fresh casting grain and the rest the melted sheet silver. It worked great.  I believe the melted casting grain flowed into the mold better. Anyway, we now have an escutcheon with which we can work to engrave and carve the details. 



While letting the mold cool, Maria did some final shaping of the stock and began the whiskering process.  We stained the stock red with scarlet aniline dye dissolved in water. When she has scraped and sanded off all the color, she has whiskered the entire stock. Then we will finish the barrel tang carving and inlet the wrist plate. 







dave


"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7856
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #181 on: May 07, 2023, 03:23:30 AM »
This has been a most enjoyable follow along. Visually and educationally. Thanks again foe letting us in on the fun.

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2220
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #182 on: May 07, 2023, 01:08:34 PM »
I have learned and relearned many things from both of you. I hope I can retain it.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18292
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #183 on: May 07, 2023, 03:57:48 PM »
  This is a Great thread, Thanks for taking the time to take Pix and writing it up. My hat is off to both of you.

   Tim

Offline davec2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2901
    • The Lucky Bag
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #184 on: May 07, 2023, 07:24:13 PM »
David,

A couple of thoughts about the silver casting.....Melting thin sterling with an oxy / acetylene torch will often burn out a fair amount of the 7.5% copper in the alloy.  The copper in the alloy not only makes the silver stronger but also reduces the viscosity in the molten state allowing the alloy to flow much more freely.  When you added the fresh casting shot, you probably brought the copper content back up.  I do mostly centrifugal castings so it is not as much of an issue for me as the centrifugal force moving the metal into the mold is much greater than the 1 G gravitation force of a pour......and my mold is at 1100 F which is a huge help in keeping the metal flowing into fine detail without the mold itself drawing heat away.

I also use a Prest-o-Lite torch for most castings.  It burns air and acetylene which has two advantages:  The flame temperature is lower helping to not overheat the casting material, and second, by using air as the oxidizer rather than pure oxygen, there is a much lower chance of burning (or oxidizing) any of the alloying metals out of sterling silver, gold alloys, copper alloys, etc.  Also, unlike gold, silver will absorb a considerable amount of oxygen in the molten state.  When it solidifies, the oxygen is released and can result in a substantial amount of porosity as the metal transitions from the liquidus to the solidus state.  Molten silver will not only pick up oxygen from the flame of the torch but from the surrounding air if kept in the molten state too long.  In silver, I try to make the casting the instant the melt is fluid enough to minimize the absorption of oxygen from the surrounding air.

Please pass along my most sincere congratulations and encouragement to Maria (and you as the instructor) on her project.  It is a great joy to watch her progress and folow along on this thread.

Best,

David
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 07:28:53 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline acorn20

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #185 on: May 07, 2023, 07:45:56 PM »
davec2...I found your recent post most enlightening.  That's what I really enjoy about this site...you follow a thread and then someone makes a post that provides information about a subject you've wondered about for years.  Everyone just shares information with one another just like smart dog is doing with Maria.  Keep it coming.
Dan Akers

Online Bill Raby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #186 on: May 07, 2023, 07:57:57 PM »
Centrifuge casting works great for small pieces, but vacuum casting is better for larger ones. For silver anyway. About the only equipment you need is a vacuum pump. The rest can be cobbled together pretty easy. A boric acid will help a lot with silver casting, and soldering. Acetylene is not a very good gas for casting. It causes all sorts of problems. Propane or natural gas is much better. Hydrogen is ideal but comes with its own issues. The tanks are hard to get, expensive, and they ALWAYS leak. Water torches are great, but expensive. Pure gold will not soak up any oxygen but gold alloys certainly do. An electric melting pot also works good for casting.

Offline 2 shots

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #187 on: May 07, 2023, 08:31:46 PM »
this build thread just keeps getting better and better. the best to both of you.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #188 on: May 07, 2023, 10:52:07 PM »
Hi Guys,
Thank you Dave and Bill.  In the next casting, I am going to melt it in a crucible in my oven, which should eliminate any problems with acetylene or over heating.  I usually use the torch for small jobs because it is convenient butt I also have large and small crucibles.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #189 on: May 09, 2023, 04:08:00 AM »
I had the pleasure of meeting Maria at the Ohio Gun builders class. Her skill was self evident , she was dedicated and hardworking, you can tell she has had a great teacher. I was quite impressed by her inletting, with each audible snap of each part. Hopefully she continues to pursue this art. Keep up the fine instruction, after all passing on your knowledge to an Apprentice is the greatest/important thing any member can do to persevere the History/Art. 

I hope you inspire others to take people under their wing!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 04:24:58 AM by Jdbeck »

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #190 on: May 10, 2023, 02:32:40 AM »
Hi,
Jdbeck, thank you for your comment about Maria and it is true.  She is dedicated, smart, and learns very fast.  I enjoy our time in the shop together very much.  Thank you again Bill and Dave for the advice on casting.  I put it to use immediately.  This won't be a big post.  Maria scraped and sanded off the pink stain and when done had completed the finish smoothing and cleanup for the stock. 







She shaped the lock and side plate moldings into a narrow bead with no actual flat.  We also made sure the breech area of the stock was contoured flush with the standing breech.




I decided that the cast wrist plate we made on Saturday was not going to work.  It was a little too wide for the wrist of the stock and the leaf design at the bottom was too complicated to sculpt well given the final thickness that the plate had to have.  So on Sunday, I carved a narrower design in hard maple and then cast it.  I used my oven and crucible for heating the silver and added fresh casting grain to the mix.  It came out well.  Today, while Maria cleaned up the stock, I began the process of sculpting the cast plate with die sinker's chisels and my Lindsay Airgraver.  After a while I introduced Maria to those tools and let her have at the plate.  She did well but appreciates the skill and challenge involved.  Anyway, the new plate will look great when we are done shaping and polishing it.




Next up, she inlets the wrist plate and finishes the carving around the standing breech.  Then stain and finish and we are on the final stretch.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Hank01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • Let's build a classic 18th century English style double barrel sporting gun!
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #191 on: May 10, 2023, 02:03:37 PM »
Excellent! What an amazing adventure with an equally amazing young artist and her mentor.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2023, 01:24:56 AM »
Hi,
Just a short post.  I worked on finishing the wrist plate.  Maria will work on the final details but I needed to get us moving and it will take time for her to acquire the metal working skills.  This stuff is not easy.  Anyway, here is the plate on Saturday.
 


Here it is today.





My preliminary polish always shows up rough areas that have to be worked on. There are also some engraving needed before it goes into the wood.  However, you can see what a fine wrist plate it will be.  Hopefully, in the next session, she will inlet it and get to work on the breech carving.

dave


"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Osprey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1350
  • Roaming Delmarva...
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #193 on: May 11, 2023, 02:47:40 PM »
This whole thread is great, but Dave you need to do a full tutorial on the silver casting process from wax to finished!
"Any gun built is incomplete until it takes game!"

Offline MeliusCreekTrapper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #194 on: May 11, 2023, 11:00:56 PM »
What an amazing journey to follow along with. Maria is an amazing student who has an excellent tutor.

If I may ask, what is the purpose of the red dye? Is it to assist in getting all areas sanded smooth and free of tool marks?

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #195 on: May 14, 2023, 02:31:14 PM »
Hi,
We did not get quite as much done today as I hoped but we are on the home stretch.  Maria inlet the wrist plate.  This is the first one she has ever done but she now has excellent inletting skills.  I find the easiest way is to gouge out the a portion of the center of the mortise so the plate sits flatter on the stock. 
   


Then trace the plate with pencil.  On this plate, we started inletting the top half first working down to the bottom as the plate set in deeper.



Maria was in a horse competion the evening before where she won ribbons for barrel riding and other events. She was telling me all about the event as she was putting inletting black on the wrist plate.  She just kept talking and absent mindedly slathering it on and I let her do it knowing the mess that would result. She got back at me by smearing some on my face.



Eventually the plate sat down nicely in the mortise.  We don't have a bolster on this plate for a screw coming up from under the trigger guard.  We are simply going to pin the plate.  The middle lug of the guard would interfere with that screw.  It came out well.





We moved on to carving the rococo shell.  Maria removed background on the inside of the design.





We ended the day with her drawing in the details in the shell to be cut next time.



dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6958
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #196 on: May 17, 2023, 02:13:55 AM »
Hi,
We had a shorter day today so we did not get everything done I wanted to accomplish.  That is OK.  Maria has never carved a design like this on a gunstock before.  She got some carving experience doing the lock panels and carving the wax model for the wrist plate.  However, this is her first relief carving on a stock.  She had the edges of the carving already cut and background removed. Today she did most of the detailing using small gouges, small skew chisels, small round scrapers, and a little bit of riffler work.  First, she carved the concave surfaces of the shell.  We are closely copying the Heylin fowler with a few changes.
 




Then she went back and smoothed the details and worked forward on the design.  She worked slowly because she never did this before.  This is where we ended up for today.








We still have some detailing and refining to do but she did a great job on her first relief carved design.  The fowler is almost done and you can see how elegant it will be.





dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3393
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #197 on: May 18, 2023, 04:09:46 PM »
That's a bonny shell, Dave!
Please pass on my compliments to Maria!

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9613
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #198 on: May 18, 2023, 04:30:34 PM »
Maria combines a rare mix of interest,skill,brains and beauty and these picture prove it.I hope she continues with this as a hobbyist.
I also have a lovely young lady in my life but her interest is military history and WW2 is her focus and I told her of the people I met and
knew from that time frame and some were NOT our friends in that time.Her name is Amanda and stays in contact with me by phone and Email.
Bob Roller

Offline J. Talbert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2303
Re: My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project
« Reply #199 on: May 18, 2023, 09:18:57 PM »
The carving is looking very nice.

My compliments,

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
Thomas Sowell