My Apprentice and Our English Fowler Project

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What a wonderful resource.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thanks everyone for your support and encouragement.  Maria told me she dropped off the basketball team this winter so she can spend more time on this project and she will skip choir.  She says being a senior, she can do that and the project is her priority.  So after Thanksgiving, we are going to start on a schedule despite not having the barrel yet.  There is much to do.  I need to get her started developing her tool skills for wood and metal.  We will also cover history and design.  I am also going to introduce her to hammer and chisel engraving and historical English designs. We also may design and cast the wrist plate for the gun and make components so that when the barrel arrives, we can move forward quickly.

Jim Kibler, I am glad you like the fowler design. It is very much influenced by the great gun you restored and sold me years ago.  That gun is so appropriate because it represents the kind of gun many American colonists may have ordered from England.  We focus way too much on trade guns and forget many colonists ordered good quality but very affordable sporting guns from England that were not cheap trade guns.  The focus on trade guns is such a distortion of colonial reality.

dave     

[Pukka Bundook]

I sure wish I could sit and watch the progress and process Dave!

Re the profiles,
I'd be on board. A complete clutz with computers, but could press-gang able bodies to do it !

[Daryl]

Taylor could profile his Lang against Keith's Purdy and my .69, then submit for a cap-lock profile(s).

[Justin Urbantas]

I would be very interested in scalable profiles for stocks. This would be super helpful to get things right

[Justin Urbantas]

I might be tempted to make myself a Lang rifle if that happened, Daryl.

[Dwshotwell]

It really looks good Jim!

Dave,

Looking at your drawing in the opening post made me wonder if a library of original stock profiles would be of value to the community?
We have quite a few here wishing to create a Longrifle or English sporting gun who do not have access to originals.
If we could garner outlines for folk to use, it would go a Long way to getting those interested on the right track.
To be honest, we see a good few guns made that are Very well fitted, but the lines are a little off.  This could be a great resource to help eleviate that problem.
Just thinking out loud...

This would be fantastic for a lot of us who are trying to learn but don’t have an opportunity to see the real deal. Photos can only take you do far. I know it still isn’t the same but outlines may be easier to compare than photos, or help interpret the photos. And for building from scratch if would be indispensable. Sign me up.

[Tom Currie]

Dave, I look forward to following Maria and your exciting project. Having a creative story behind a build is a fun way to pursue this craft.

[smart dog]

Hi and thank you all for your supportive comments,

Maria and I got started on the actual work on the gun today.  We are waiting on the barrel but there is a lot we can do in the meantime.  Her interest is not just building the gun but understanding the history and context behind it.  There is nothing I would rather hear than that.  So for the first hour today, I showed her the presentation I made on making a mid-18th century English sporting gun at the Kempton Gunmakers Fair.  I covered a brief history of the British gun trade from 1637 until 1800 and discussed the style changes that occurred during that period and why they happened.  Then we went out to the shop and I demonstrated to her what makes a good flintlock.


We covered all the components and their names both modern and old. She preferred the old names so a frizzen is a battery, frizzen spring is a feather spring, mainspring vise is a spring cramp, etc.  Then we spent time looking at some very fine original and modern made locks and some lesser modern made locks to teach her what makes a good lock.  In the process, I had a great teaching device. I had a Chambers round-faced English lock purchased last summer and one purchased some years ago. Both were identical except for one thing, the toe of the mainspring hook on the newer lock was right at the tip of the toe of the tumbler when the lock was at rest.  At full cock, it was 2/3s of the way up the foot of the tumbler.  On the older lock, the toe of the hook was part way up the foot of the tumbler at rest and then right at the corner of the tumbler at full cock.  I had Maria measure the force to pull the flintcock back to half and then full cock on both locks.  On the newer lock, it took 10 lbs pull to bring it to half cock and 10 lbs to bring it to full.  On the older lock, it took 11 lbs to bring it to halfcock and just 8 lbs to bring it to full. That slight difference in the relation of the toe of the hook and its position on the tumbler made all the difference. Next we studied later locks with stirrup tumblers. We measured the forces needed to pull the flintcock back to half and then full cock on the new "Nock" lock and on an original English lock by Fields from the 1820s.  On the Nock lock it took 8-9lbs to pull it back to half and 10 lbs to pull it back to full.  On the original lock, it took 11 lbs to pull it back to half and 8 lbs to pull it back to full.  Then I had Maria use calipers to measure the distance between the centers of the stirrup spindle held by the mainsprings and the centers of the tumbler spindles when the lock was at full cock.  That distance was 0.28" for the "Nock" and 0.21" for the Fields original.  That closer distance meant greater mechanical advantage.  We then examined and measured a collection of modern and original locks including one from a pair of Wogdon pistols. She learned the lesson really well.

We also discussed other lock features and then I had her disassemble her Chambers lock and start working on polishing and tuning it. 
 




She is very happy doing this work and is a lightning quick study. She quit varsity basketball so she could work on this project.  She is dedicated.

dave

[Bob Gerard]

From the clock on the wall to the growing darkness outside the window at the workbench, it appears your student is very involved and focused on her work for several hours on in. That’s a great testament to to a good teacher as well, I would say. I think we are going to see a fine long gun at the end of this journey as well as a well-grounded young builder. Awesome!

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,
You have already given her more insight than the average person gets, using originals and comparing to new locks.
First rate,  and as Maria is a quick learner, she will be a fantastic student!

[Mgray]

Hello all (and of course, Dave),

I am (the apparently famous) Maria. Thank you all so much for the support. I had no idea so many people were already rooting for me.
Although Dave and I have only had a few work sessions I have already learned so much and continue to do so everytime I am in the shop or open one of the texts he has lent me.
As he stated I have dropped the varsity basketball team. This is a huge thing for me as a senior and my coach and teammates all think I am crazy for skipping my senior season for (and I quote a student) "a stupid project that's not going to get you anywhere in life." I am even cutting back on the time I spend on the back of my horse Jack for this project.
All of this seems like hard sacrifices to some but as many of you will undoubtedly understand this journey I am currently on of building my own English Fowler is something I will never forget and I will be gaining skills and knowledge many in this world are sadly lacking. So it may seem to be a sacrifice to drop basketball and riding, but I have never once regretted it and am truly excited for this project to continue.
While my uneducated peers may think this is a useless project, I know it is something I will never forget and will stick with me forever. I plan and hope to one day have at least half the skill and knowledge Dave does.
I couldn't be doing this without you, Dave. Thank you.

-Maria

[rich pierce]

Following our passions keeps us alive, excited, motivated, thinking, and learning. To do what others want and expect us to do (other than our responsibilities) is a recipe for unhappiness.

[Dave Marsh]

Maria, congrats on getting to learn from one of the best.  You will not be sorry and what you learn will stay with you throughout life.  Best of luck.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Maria came over today and was in full 18th century dress.  She made it look good compared with the over fed middle aged reenactors out there who try to represent starved continentals.  Anyway, we made her ramrod pipes today. During our previous session, I taught her about steel, brass, and silver alloys, and how to heat treat them. Today, she learned how to solder.  We started by cutting out rectangles of mild steel sheet to make the pipes.  In our case the forward pipe is 27/64" inside diameter, the middle pipe is 3/8" inside diameter, and the rear pipe is 5/16" in diameter. That is consistent with original English fowlers from this period.  She cut the rectangles and then embossed raised ribs on the ends.  We use the methods taught to me by Kit Ravenshear using a little plate with a groove filed into it and a cold chisel.
 




We planned for 1/4" tabs on each side of the pipes for the pins.  She formed those tabs next.




I had to tell her "whomp that pipe, don't give it a love tap.  She whacked it accordingly.




After forming the tabs, we cleaned them up with files and sandpaper, preparing for soldering and formed the pipes around the appropriate sized drill bits. Then we soldered the tabs together.



Then she cleaned up the ends of the pipes and removed any burrs on the ends with a counter sink so they would not be sharp and scrape the ramrod.



She then filed and cleaned up the pipes.  Next we cut off the tang from a cast steel rear pipe.




Then she soldered the tang on to her rear sheet steel pipe.  She embossed a ring on the rear of that pipe about 1/8" forward of the end giving it a section to attach the cast tang. We then soldered the tang on to the rear pipe.




Maria  cleaned it up and here are her set of pipes.







dave

[Fly Navy]

Nice work. They came out great!

[Angus]

Great project and a start to progress.

To Maria: For those peers whom believe the "sport" they play will get them somewhere in life, certainly do have a lesson coming. There is a quite small percentage whom make it a gainfully employed profession. Sport teaches teamwork and camaraderie, both of which you can find among this forum and events enjoyed by the same. I would certainly be surprised if very many of the ALR forum members still participate in the same "sports" today that they did while in grade school. Peers of my current age complain of injuries incurred during their teen years of organized team events. No doubt, they incurred injuries of other sorts from decisions not for the wiser and more than likely during the partake of truth serum.
Also, you are already finding out there is physical fitness required for the tasks of building firearms. Now imagine doing this as a daily function, an apprentice, an underling or even the master of the shop.
And as you progress with learning and skill, you shall apply this knowledge and talent to other attributes of life. Layout and measurements, keen eye to detail, proportion and beauty, utilizing mixed materials.

Chin up and pave your own path!

[mikeyfirelock]

I’ve been making my own ramrod pipes for 50 years, and she’s doing a better job at it than I can !

[elk killer]

Your indeed one lucky lady, would be over the top cool to own a scratch made rifle made by a woman, for sure one of a kind item very few would ever own...

[smart dog]

Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for looking and supporting Maria.  She is an exceptional person and student. She was offered a scholarship at Siena College near Albany, NY that would pay 80% of her tuition and living costs for 4 years to major in history.  Because she rides horses, she was one of the Civil War soldiers representing the 2nd Vermont in a parade last weekend.  She appreciates your support and good wishes. 

We should be getting the barrel any day but in the meantime, we worked on her iron butt plate.  It was forged by Ian Pratt but we need to tweak it a little for her project and clean it up. The first step was to widen the return a little by decreasing the domed shape making the top a little flatter.  So I taught Maria how to use my Oxy/Acetylene welder.  She used it to heat the plate while I hammered it into final shape.  Here she is looking very "retro".

       


Then we gave the plate a little more crescent on the face including adding a little positive pitch.  I explained to her how that should help fit the gun better to her build.  Then she cleaned it up with files.  We have more shaping to do but it is coming along nicely and today was a good lesson in metal work as well as gun architecture.  She learns so fast it is scary.






dave

[alacran]

Dave, over the years that I have been a member of this forum, I have admired your work.
You are always enthusiastic about sharing your knowledge and solutions to problems encountered while building rifles.
I believe that at heart you are an educator, who gets as much satisfaction from sharing as building.
Congratulations to Maria you couldn't ask for a better teacher.

[mountainman]

Just to let you know, I look forward to following this thread I think it's so great, and very interesting! Keep up the good work!! Maria is very fortunate to be able to work alongside you Dave! Very inspirational!!

[smylee grouch]

IMHO the practice of using the " old " terms is a great idea. It fits in with the historical aspect of her build and will add greatly to her history education. Best of luck to both of you on this project.

[smart dog]

Hi and thanks for your support for Maria!

We worked on the butt plate some more today.  Here is our inspiration, a 1760s English fowler restored by Jim Kibler.



We are not copying this plate but using it for inspiration.  The forged plate by Ian Pratt has the height, crescent face, and overall shape that Maria wants.  However, we are tweaking it a bit to make it closer to our model.  You might ask why not just use a common commercially made English fowler butt plate?  Well, none have much crescent to the face and none are tall enough.  That is the reason I use the "Dubbs" longrifle butt plates sold by TOW for many of my 18th century British guns.  With some welding or stretching of brass, it can be made into a much more elegant English fowler butt plate than the usual products available.  In this case, we had Ian's plate and decided it would work well with some changes.  Moreover, the modifications are exceedingly valuable for teaching gun work and basic skills any apprentice or serious muzzleloader gun maker should master.

Maria filed the butt plate to bring it closer to our model.
   







We welded steel to the plate to make the forward end a bit wider so we could shape it more to our model.  Maria cleaning up the welds with the Dremel destroyer.  More to come.




dave

[ScottH]

Well Done Maria!