Author Topic: kibler percussion lock  (Read 3892 times)

Offline Prospector8083

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
kibler percussion lock
« on: November 23, 2022, 10:50:39 PM »
I would like to make a percussion rifle out of kibler's southern mountian rifle kit. Doe's anybody know who makes Jim's locks? I was hoping to find a lock that will fit perfectly.

Offline elk killer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2022, 10:52:58 PM »
Jim makes them
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline Dan'l 1946

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2022, 11:04:17 PM »
I would like to make a percussion rifle out of kibler's southern mountian rifle kit. Doe's anybody know who makes Jim's locks? I was hoping to find a lock that will fit perfectly.
Pretty sure Jim doesn't make a percussion lock, but you could do what they did back in the old days and just convert your flintlock to percussion.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2022, 11:06:08 PM »
You won't find any lock that will fit other than the flintlock we provide.   Other commercial locks may or may not work. Odds are they won't.  At least not without a great deal of work.  Best advice is to convert the supplied flintlock to percussion just like often occurred in the period.  This takes a bit of skill and know-how.

You can just use a flintlock.  This does the job just fine ;)

Jim

Offline Prospector8083

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2022, 11:58:26 PM »
Thanks, looking forward to the Hawken kit too!

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2022, 01:42:59 AM »
My Kibler flintlocks are more reliable than any cap gun I own, that has a drum or chambered breech.   "Reliable" is approaching 100% sure fire.  I do not notice a lock time advantage to cap guns over a Kibler flintlock.     Jim put a lot of research into the design of the lock.  He also makes it to standard of mechanical perfection. His locks put the run of the mill cast part locks to shame. 

 IT would be a pity to convert one into a cap gun with a drum.  It would also be a step backward in reliability.  Besides, caps are difficult to get these days. 

Offline Ross Dillion

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2022, 04:48:42 AM »
Unreliable caplock?  LOL! Never had an issue unless back when I tried using substitute black powder. That being said caps are hard to find these days and expensive.  Shoot what you like. I like them all.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15826
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2022, 05:46:15 AM »
Cap guns have won the majority of the postal matches over the last 2 1/2 years. Interesting. ;)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2022, 01:06:13 PM »
Daryl, exactly how many different guns would that be?

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2022, 02:26:14 PM »
Let's see here. People who used guns way more than we do today, who had been using flintlocks decided to change over their rifles to percussion.
Those who claim that the ignition on their flintlock is 100 % reliable, just haven't shot them enough. Nothing is 100% reliable.
Shooting a flintlock doesn't make you a better person.
I mostly shoot flintlocks, but I still like shooting my Hawken.  I have shot some of my best targets with a cap lock.
I shoot my percussion target pistol which is nearly identical to my target flintlock pistol on average 2 points better than the flint.
I have killed as many elk with a flintlock rifle, as I have with a caplock. The memories of the hunts are equal in satisfaction.
When I first started competing seriously with muzzleloaders, I used to wonder about flintlock snobbery exhibited by some shooters that were not very good shooters. To the point a fellow who was a very good friend would say to me after I had bested him on a shoot, " yeah but you beat me with a caplock".
That is what led me to build my first flintlock. The first time I shot it in a match against him, I beat him soundly, which led me to ask him if he liked it better when I beat him with a flintlock.
If flintlocks are so superior, why do they have to be segregated at matches?
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline JBJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2022, 03:54:42 PM »
Thank you alacran.

J.B.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2022, 04:02:37 PM »
the magnificent locks of the European,mostly English lock filers was laid to rest by the tiny impact sensitive caps and the thousand yard target rifles were made possible by this early idea of "Better living thru chemistry"called the percussion cap.In the book I mentioned sometime ago,The American Gun there is an article titled Fuses,Flints and Pyrites and the marvelous locks made to obstruct the oncoming percussion ignition system.One objection was that if guns were certain to fire then war would be even bloodier.There were only 3 volumes of this book published and they are 1-2 and 4. Number 3 was not published.Great history but rare books.I had a half stock flint rifle started but never really got into it and sold the barrel to one person and the stock to another.
Bob Roller

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2022, 04:06:18 PM »
Food snobs... beer snobs... and lock snobs. I remember 30 years ago, if you were shooting a flintlock at a club shoot, when you stepped to the firing line... everyone else had to clear the firing line... you had to shout "flintlock!" 3 times... and wear a flashing light on top of your hat. How times have changed.

The historical record is pretty clear... percussion was superior until self contained cartridges came out.

I've only owned 1 percussion rifle... all the other rifles are flint... but I'm not a snob about it.
Bob

Offline Leatherbark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2022, 04:34:51 PM »
For some reason I have been migrating back to cap lock rifles lately. Seems my interest in history has progressed several decades. So now I emulate an ignorant but not stupid hog farmer in the Appalachian Mountains with 10 children to feed instead of acting like Simon Kenton harvesting the natives LOL.

Not to mention at 67 I've developed a flinch while other rifles are sounding off around me at a match which aggravates me immensely with my flinters.

Offline Ghillie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2022, 09:05:26 PM »
When our local muzzleloading club did flag salutes back in the 70's for the bicentennial, the only guns to misfire were always cap locks.  The flint guns always went off.  Just saying ---

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2022, 09:32:02 PM »
I wouldn't call the efforts of Whitworth,Rigby and others "Riff Raff" or low end of any kind.Like it ot not,the flint lock was made obsolete by these tiny caps and another group of very high end guns replaced them.Multiple shot pistols became possible using the caps.
Today with scarcity and greed have made the caps far too costly.I haven't bought any for decades.WHAT are they going for now from people most of us deem reliable sellers? Any hazardous fees to pay? I know the USPS will not knowingly ship them or primers or any other types of ammunition.Trying to bypass their regs is not a good idea.A top quality kit styled like an English sporting rifle of the late flint period would be a great idea and the Kiblers seem to have the idea down to a science and maybe Chambers can as well.Locks are better now than ever and my own experience with a 58 caliber full stock with my Ketland lock gave it instant ignition.
Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2022, 12:22:36 AM »
My experience with caplocks is that fouling an oil get in the flame channel.  This is worse from long drilled flash holes.  That can block the ignition, particularly on the first shot of the day.  Yes, if you remove the nipple and hose it out with solvent you will be OK.  My experience with flintlocks that have a liner is that if it is relatively clean the powder is visible through the liner vent.  I find that my first shot reliability is better with my Kibler SMRs. 

A flintlock with a drilled flash hole has not impressed me. 

(edited to meet our rules)

I  would say that cap vs flint for reliability depends on how it was made in the first place.  Rock vs priming compound does not seem to be the deciding factor to me.   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 02:17:39 PM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15826
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2022, 01:22:19 AM »
If the flintlocks were so superior, cap lock systems would NEVER have been invented. Just saying --- ;)

Daryl,  Are you spouting fake news?  ;D

Nope - just the obvious truth.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2022, 02:38:47 AM »
I think that now that folks have taken the opportunity to vent their prejudices, we should give this a rest and return to the question from the OP.

Your only recourse is to convert Jim's Late Ketland lock by cutting away the pan, installing a percussion hammer of the right throw, and using a drum and nipple.  Almost all of the original SMR's that are not percussion to begin with, have been converted using this system.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2022, 03:50:14 PM »
Converted this way BEEKAWZ that little cap might fire the gun in the rain. The lock masters of England and other places went to extremes to try to make their lock "rainproof"but finally had to concede to that pesky little cap.On the plus side,the lockmasters of that time gave us marvelous relics to study and admire and even if possible,to copy-----maybe.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 08:00:58 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2022, 03:54:18 PM »
If you do decide to convert, I suggest not using a drum that is pre-drilled for the nipple. These can place the nipple at the wrong angle for the hammer to hit correctly. I had that happen with a Dixie Gun Works TN squirrel rifle I tried to convert one time. Start by installing an un-drilled drum then mark it for nipple placement... remove it... and drill it for the nipple.

Also... when you file the plate to fit the drum, make sure you don't remove too much metal. You want the plate to be in contact with the drum for support.
Bob

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2022, 07:21:17 PM »
Solid advice X 2 from RAT.I'd add the drilling and tapping of the hole in a new barrel to install the drum. A 5/16x24 is my first choice and then IF you mess it up there is the 3/8 x 24.Look at a tap/drill chart for the drill size and then after drilling it,countersink it the depth of the first thread to help start/stabilize the tap and also a tapping fluid of about any brand.
Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2022, 09:42:14 PM »
I think Jim uses 5/16 x 32 liners.  So, make a 5/16 x32 drum or increase to 3/8".   

Offline Bigmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2022, 01:54:53 AM »
It is odd that this subject should come up just now.  Many years back we all used cap guns until we (my brother and I) got tired of our new found black powder friends making fun of us.  You know, real guns don't have nipples, etc.
So we changed to all flint.
BUT, now that I am old and have many problems shooting I thought I would change my 36 cal squirrel rifle from fling to percussion.  I know, it is supposed to be easier the other way around, percussion to flint.  I just completed this last week.
My rifle had a large Siler flintlock on it so I found a used Siler percussion, and went to work.
I did not have to do anything at the overall lock plate inlet.  But I had the flint lock inlet a little too high so I had to carefully file the recess for the drum so that it is a tight fit and any force from the hammer is actually transmitted thru the drum and unto the lock plate.
This all worked out ok.
Another problem I had was that when I originally built this rifle some years back I tried an old trick my friend Phil Cravener used to do to make small barreled guns wider.  He would add a pc of 1/8" sheet brass to the bolster, thus making the rifle 1/4" wider and appearing better.
So I had done it on this flintlock and the mortice was for that.  So I had to add the same thickness to the percussion lock.  It took more time but it all worked out, as the photos show.
But you will not find a lock with a plate that matches your inlet mortice.  Perhaps Mr. Kibler will sell you a lock plate with internals, but no frizzen or spring.  Maybe make or find a flint hammer?  I saw one once that used the original flint hammer and simply had a pc of steel in the jaws and it struck the cap?
Hope this helps ya in some way.  It is not a fast or little project.







« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 01:59:05 AM by Bigmon »

Offline Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: kibler percussion lock
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2022, 03:11:27 AM »
To me I would avoid the hassle and just buy another gun...
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"