What to do with this rifle??

[Birddog1911]

So, while I've been around guns my entire life, I'm still newer to muzzleloaders. I bought a rifle on GB, and didn't really realize what I was getting myself into. Boy, where to start.

Described as a .36 Leman, with a GM barrel. The barrel was a take off, but didn't give that much thought. Well, she's a pig. 15/16" straight.

Also, after discussing with a builder, he pointed out a number of things that are wrong with this rifle.  So I'm trying to choose my route.

First, the barrel is going to go on a diet. I'm going to send it to Bobby Hoyt, and have it bored out to .54.

The builder I've been talking to thinks that the stock will need a great deal of work done to it. The RR channel appears off center, there's about 1/4" of wood under it, and the web is way too fat. Not to mention that the tang inletting needs some attention, and there's just enough of a gap between the barrel and the lock, that I need to address.

After the barrel, and those are addressed, then what to do with the stock? I hate to just discard it. But, this also gives me a couple of opportunities. First, I could hunt down a pre-cut stock, and go from there. With my skill level, maybe the best route. Another, bolder choice, is to get a blank and start the stock from scratch. But I'm a real novice.

I welcome all thoughts. I'm going to use this as a valuable learning opportunity, one way or another.

[Clowdis]

I might just call this a lesson well learned and start over. Either buy something from a reputable builder or get some parts and a tutor and start a build of your own. Trying to fix this one might be throwing good money after bad.

[Birddog1911]

I'm not sure I agree, given a good barrel and lock. Commission q custom stock, of course not. But worst case, I get a cheap blank and use it to learn on.

I did forget to mention that the barrel is a hook breech. When I clean the junk off of the breech end, the tang and breech should mate up better.

I also forgot to mention that if I go the route of a pre-cut, I'll probably go with a fullstock Hawken piece. I did see a nice custom one done with the same length barrel.

[Long Ears]

Well, it's salvageable I think. First I would fix that gap between the breech and the tang. That is quite common to see from a rookie builder. Remove both and fit it up correctly, remember your barrel keys may need adjusting after you work on the hook breech. The thick web is also a rookie move. You can thin down the stock some and then redrill or redirect the ramrod hole. To do this you will probably have to plug the existing hole with a really hard dowel so you new hole doesn't follow the path of least resistance. Next that barrel needs crowned really bad! Like you said it will be a learning experience by the time you get everything jigged up to redo the ramrod hole. Go slow and think ahead. the gap between the lock and barrel will be the easiest to fix and don't worry about the off center flash hole. A couple of the big kids will chime in here I hope. Bob

[flinchrocket]

A picture of the lock area, including trigger and guard would be nice.

[mikeyfirelock]

My vote goes for getting a blank and going at it…….( AND some good  reference materials on building from a blank….Buchele’s book is a classic and comes to mind first).  You would get a lot of practical knowledge and experience ( and probably a fair amount of new and very useful tools) and you’d still have the old stock if you decided to refurb it.   There’s a great deal of pride in doing so, not to mention the flexibility in shaping and dimensioning to fit you if wanted.
 mikeyfirelock

[Dave Marsh]

I'd return it to the seller. 

[rich pierce]

I’d see if it could be a bench rifle, left as is, if you’re interested in competing, or selling it as a bench rifle, if it shoots really well. You can’t know until you try.

I guess you’re proposing to do a build based on these parts and this barrel, re-bored and re-rifled. Are the parts that good? At best when done you’ve got a shooter worth $600 more or less for sale or trade among the fellas I know.

But if it’s a vehicle for you to learn how to build a rifle from a pre-carved stock, do you want to invest $500 in tools and supplies with the intent of getting into building muzzleloaders? Or are you driven mostly by a desire to redeem a disappointing purchase? Or maybe you’re figuring you’re not going to eat this one AND get another gun. Lots to think about.

Where are you located? It may be possible there’s someone nearby who could look it over with you.

Just my thoughts; no need to answer.

[oldtravler61]

  If it was mine and I wanted to learn. Fixing this one would be a hack of a learning tool. But then again I don't know how much you got into it.
Seen a lot worse than this and turned into a really nice rifle...  JMHO

[Birddog1911]

Lots of good info here, thanks.

First, it can't be returned.

Second, I'll tey to get a better pic of the lock area.

I have a good investment of tools, so that's not an issue. And though I didn't mention it, this isn't my first muzzleloader, nor my first build, exactly. I'm finishing a Kibler, and taking my time through a French Dragoon pistol.

I wonder if this might have been built as a bench rifle. And I'm not 100% against keeping it that way, but it wouldn't be ideal. First though, the barrel, tang, and lock would need to be addressed.

[borderdogs]

to me it looks like t was a kit and built by someone who put the parts together without much work to the parts. You can't return it too bad then what to do with it. I have a rifle that was screwed up many years ago that was given to me and it has sit for over 20 years. Its shootable but it needs a lot of work to get it right. It was built probably similar to what you have. Originally when it was given to me I was thinking of getting back to building another muzzleloader. But looking that rifle over I thought I wasn't equal to what it needed so I put it aside and there it sat.

After building 4 plains type rifles I can handle the work needed to fix this rifle but when to do it? and how best to approach it? Take the parts and use a new stock? keep the stock and fix the barrel keys which are uneven and would require patching? When I finish the two I am working on now I might do something with this rifle. Or I might start another new project and let it continue to sit...........form the sounds of what you write and you working on a Kibler and a dragoon pistol I think you are in a similar position as I am with the one I have.....a lot to think about or to put aside.
Rob

[Goo]

Take a builders class they come up from time to time there aer some nice items i museums you can go look at in person. maybe even one near you.
 

[Eric Krewson]

I was in a similar situation with a really poorly done Haines pre-carve kit, it just happened to have the best stock wood that I had ever worked with so I didn't want to trash it.

I could have built two scratch builds in the time it took me to straighten out the mess I had to work with. I had the barrel rebored and finally got the build done, the gun looks really good but won't group worth a hoot with any load under the sun.

My first mistake was buying a sight unseen TOW kit 3rd hand at a half price bargain for only $650, my next mistake was thinking it would be easy to straighten out the kits glitches, my last mistake was having a perfectly good .50 Rice barrel bored out to .54.

Looking back, I should have salvaged the parts, trashed the stock, bought a blank and started over.

[bob in the woods]

To me, that gun looks like an import kit . The lock looks like it was replaced, so the fit isn't great.  How are the ramrod thimbles attached ?  Some I've seen are screwed on , the machine screws being threaded into the barrel. That might affect how large a bore you can have when altering it. There's a ton of wood that needs to come off !

[Gaeckle]

From what I've seen already, that rifle was made with a pre-carve stock, and that's what one gets with a pre-carve: extra thick web's, unequal sides, off center here and there. That's why, in  my opinion, pre-carves are so horrible.

If that was in my possession I would turn the barrel into a 33 to 34 inch half stock percussion rifle with some interesting stock decorations, maybe some Leonard or Biddle type inlays, spice it up some, but that's just me

[Birddog1911]

To me, that gun looks like an import kit . The lock looks like it was replaced, so the fit isn't great.  How are the ramrod thimbles attached ?  Some I've seen are screwed on , the machine screws being threaded into the barrel. That might affect how large a bore you can have when altering it. There's a ton of wood that needs to come off !

Given the GM barrel and L&R lock, I doubt an import. The thimbles are pinned in.

[Clowdis]

Well, if this isn't your first rodeo I'd have the barrel rebored like you said. After that I'd fit the breech parts together so they look good and will shoot better. Then you can get a stock blank, have it inlet for the barrel and ramrod groove cut and drilled. You don't need an expensive piece of wood, even a plain piece of maple will look good with good craftsmanship. If you have a Kibler to go by then proceed to inlet the parts yourself and build yourself something you'll be proud of. We've all been there (first scratch build), and for most of us it was the beginning of something good. Try it.

[borderdogs]

Like Eric said, the rifle I have has a nice piece of wood and is shaped pretty well all the parts are inlet ok and the lock inlet is good, the set triggers do not operate correctly. But the worst problem is the keys and slots are too big and too uneven and to fix this rifle right and to salvage the stock I would have to take off the barrel tenons and start over by making new ones. On the stock I would need to find a suitable piece of curly maple and use it to fill the key slots and patch the area around the slot. Once the new tenons are on the barrel I would have to locate them into the stock and then cut new slots for the barrel keys. It doesn't sound like a lot of work but in the end I am not sure I would have a rifle that I can make into a "go to rifle". I have a couple of rifles that I always seem to want to pick up or if its a shootin time I grab and I don't think this repair job will be one of those.  So it sits.

Again, like Eric said, probably the best approach is to find a new stock and fix the barrel tenons and start over. I don't have any money in the rifle and the guy who gave it to me never asked about it, so it hasn't cost me anything yet. I only have so much time to work in the shop and at least up to now  I wanted to spend the time I have on projects that I picked. Just so you know your post got me to thinking about that rifle and when I went into the shop I picked it up., looked it over then set it back where its been..........so
Rob

[JTR]

I'd sell it, give it back and move on. Buy a Kibler kit and start with something good.
John

[bob in the woods]

To me, that gun looks like an import kit . The lock looks like it was replaced, so the fit isn't great.  How are the ramrod thimbles attached ?  Some I've seen are screwed on , the machine screws being threaded into the barrel. That might affect how large a bore you can have when altering it. There's a ton of wood that needs to come off !

Given the GM barrel and L&R lock, I doubt an import. The thimbles are pinned in.

Sorry. I missed the GM logo on the barrel. Yes, an L&R lock.  Perhaps a nice winter's project. Anything you do can't help but improve on what you've got there 

[Hungry Horse]

You’ll never learn more about the workings of a muzzleloading rifle faster than you will fixing this one. The shortcomings are your guide. You don’t have to guess what’s wrong. And when your done, you will be ready to build one from scratch. Oh, and the best part is it was screwed up when you got it, so if it doesn’t work out it not your fault.

Hungry Horse

[kutter]

Is that bbl lined? Or am I seeing just perfectly round off color silver/gray circular polishing marks on the muzzle end.
Take a sharp tool like a graver point and snag it in that area that looks like soft solder and see if it is,,or not.

Don't like the caliber and bbl contour/weight?,,sell the bbl.
Keep the lock if it's a good one and you like it. Otherwise sell it and you don't have to worry about it anymore.
Keep any of the hardware as well if it's decent and can be used someday.
Ditch the stock... Unless you want to prove to yourself that you can in fact fix the mistakes that someone made in building it in the first place.

Put the parts you are keeping in the 'I'll make a gun out of this stuff someday' drawer in the shop and get on with your other
projects.
Something will come to mind and present itself that looks interesting to work on and build and those parts will come into play.

If you want to put time in to restoring stuff,,there are plenty of nice old timer guns around that could use the work and care.

[Birddog1911]

Well, you never know if you don't ask. I discussed it with the seller, and he's actually going to take the rifle back!

That's good, so I can focus on finishing my Kibler SMR, and consider starting a Fusil.

Thanks again for all of the advice and tips.

[Dphariss]

So, while I've been around guns my entire life, I'm still newer to muzzleloaders. I bought a rifle on GB, and didn't really realize what I was getting myself into. Boy, where to start.

Described as a .36 Leman, with a GM barrel. The barrel was a take off, but didn't give that much thought. Well, she's a pig. 15/16" straight.

Also, after discussing with a builder, he pointed out a number of things that are wrong with this rifle.  So I'm trying to choose my route.

First, the barrel is going to go on a diet. I'm going to send it to Bobby Hoyt, and have it bored out to .54.

The builder I've been talking to thinks that the stock will need a great deal of work done to it. The RR channel appears off center, there's about 1/4" of wood under it, and the web is way too fat. Not to mention that the tang inletting needs some attention, and there's just enough of a gap between the barrel and the lock, that I need to address.

After the barrel, and those are addressed, then what to do with the stock? I hate to just discard it. But, this also gives me a couple of opportunities. First, I could hunt down a pre-cut stock, and go from there. With my skill level, maybe the best route. Another, bolder choice, is to get a blank and start the stock from scratch. But I'm a real novice.

I welcome all thoughts. I'm going to use this as a valuable learning opportunity, one way or another.

You better look to the dovetails before arbitrarily wanting a 54. 15/16” IMO is not heavy enough for this caliber as a rifle especially if it has deep dovetails. I don’t like having a 3/4” breech in a 15/16” barrel. Look to the wall thickness at the front of the breechplug recess. Its going to be at or under .093. This is what holds the plug in place. You could do 11/16” I guess this would give you better wall thickness at the front of the threaded hole. I suspect it has a 5/8 plug and I do not consider this useable for a 54. ANd its probably not properly breeched anyway. In a 15/16” I would make it a 50 cal if I was to have it recut.
Just sell it would be my advice if it has all these other problems.

[Eric Krewson]

I have a 15/16" GM drop-in for a TC in .54, lots of meat left on the bones if the dovetails aren't cut too deep. A rough measurement of the barrel wall thickness, it comes to .189 at a groove. I never thought much about the dovetail depth so I just measured it on this barrel and was shocked, .110. Thank goodness there is only one and it is for the front sight placed 1" from the muzzle.