Dickert Patchbox proportion?

[mountainman]

I'm pretty sure Jacob Dickert used the golden means on the rifles he built, it seems like everything lines up on all the other features, but in this Patchbox illustration it's seems like the lid is longer than most, and the proportion of the overall length of Patchbox is not a 3 to 5 but yet it has a pleasing look, I wonder what he used as a reference to get these results?
I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think?On the other hand (it maybe I didn't do enough reading) were there 2 Jacob Dickerts?
The one seems to be more of a Moravian influence, the other more like Lancaster, like with the daisy heads?

[rich pierce]

Same guy, scores of working years. Styles change and gunsmiths usually keep up, mostly.

There are some who think Fainot designed or engraved that Dickert patchbox but I do not think he designed or made it. He may have engraved it. All his patchboxes were side-opening of his own design.

[Jim Kibler]

The golden mean in relation to longrifle work is really ridiculous in my view.  I’ve never once considered  it.  The most logical conclusion is that some have the ability to discern what looks good and others don’t.  Those who can, create work often following this proportion  The idea of relating some mathematical formulae to backwoods art (folk art) seems very improbable.

[smart dog]

Hi,
The "golden mean" is a great rule to violate and I do not think any long rifle makers actually knew or cared a wit about it.  They copied or were inspired by existing designs and modified them however they saw fit, sans the "golden mean".  Here is what I consider a better design for one of those Dickert patchboxes and it doesn't follow any "golden mean".
   


dave

[Karl Kunkel]

Its interesting how many of the old master's rifle's that appeal to our eye, fall within the proportions of the golden mean. Then there are those old rifles and period restocks that just don't "have it".  I agree with Jim, that those gunmakers of old had an artistic eye, that naturally laid out their work in pleasing proportions.  Or they learned what appealed to their customers.  I'm not sure many of them had a set of 3:5 dividers laying out their work.

[Daryl]

I thought they all used a plastic French Curve?

[Lucky R A]

       Hymmm, I find French curves rather pleasing---just sayin    Ron

[mountainman]

I thought they all used a plastic French Curve?

It's got to be a joke but I don't what it is?

[409]

I totally agree with Jim and  and pleased that a person with his credentials would confirm what I always felt but didn't dare question on this forum. I have always tried to make whatever I am working on pleasing to the eye.

[Craig Wilcox]

I do sometimes use a stainless steel French curve.

[mountainman]

I do sometimes use a stainless steel French curve.

Now I really doubt that they would have used them french curves back in them days either, especially if it was made out of plastic and stainless steel, as that wouldn't have been invented yet, more chance than likely that they would have had a set of dividing sticks made out of wood 😊

[Daryl]

I do sometimes use a stainless steel French curve.

I was just being silly, with the plastic nonsense. The French curve makes it much easier to draw perfectly smooth, flowing lines without kinks.
There are many curves on it, of use, form slow to fast.

[bluenoser]

French curves can be a God-send to those of us who are - shall we say - artistically challenged LIKE ME.  As Wayne well knows, I will happily defer to his artistic eye.

[mountainman]

So either they had it in them, and the old masters could just see it, to make it look right or use a set of dividing sticks, whatever method they used didn't seem like they were too far off.
I don't how many of you have seen or read this book by Patrick Hallam?

[JTR]

I think you mean Patrick Hallam.
I have a knife blade made by him that I need to get around too one day.
John

[mountainman]

I think you mean Patrick Hallam.
I have a knife blade made by him that I need to get around too one day.
John

Yes I meant Hallam! Excuse the error, I corrected it.
I don't recall meeting him, but I believe he setup at Dixon's to illustrate the 3 to 5 proportion.

[rich pierce]

The thing that drives me nuts about the Golden Mean is folks will claim it was used or fits on buttstocks as different as the long-wristed Bucks County guns and short-wristed Oerter rifles. Oh, in that case the Golden Mean was used for A-D and A-C measurements. In the other it was used for A-D and A-B measurements. In other words it appears they pick and choose till something fits.

Otherwise all buttstocks would have the same proportions. And they don’t. Not even close.

[Jim Kibler]

The thing that drives me nuts about the Golden Mean is folks will claim it was used or fits on buttstocks as different as the long-wristed Bucks County guns and short-wristed Oerter rifles. Oh, in that case the Golden Mean was used for A-D and A-C measurements. In the other it was used for A-D and A-B measurements. In other words it appears they pick and choose till something fits.

Otherwise all buttstocks would have the same proportions. And they don’t. Not even close.

Yes.  Such a beautiful reply!