Were stick tang knives a thing?

[Rado]

Hello Longrifle Forum,
quite new to this topic, I would like to give you a quick introduction of myself.
Im 42 years old, was born in Poland but living in Germany and Im shooting percussion revolvers since two years.
I do this in Poland, not in Germany, because Polish gun laws are not as restrictive as the German ones.
Now since I saw a Southern Mountain Rifle from Kiblers kits  on Youtube (channel 11BangBang) , I decided to get one of these kits and while Im saving money for it, I thought I would make myself  the other equipment of a late 18th century longhunter.
One of my hobbies is making traditional scandinavian knives (Puukko & Leuku)


and therefore I have plenty of knife blades. But all of them have a stick tang. I have a modern Sheffield kitchen knife blank with a full tang but it looks pretty machine made. Not the best option.

Jeff White blades are quite expensive and many vendors dont even ship to Europe. Therefore Im thinking about using one of my scandi blades.



So, here comes my question:
Were stick tang blades a thing at the frontier back then? Maybe seldom but still around, like rifles without patch box?
Are there examples or would such a knife be totally unauthentic?
Thank you and wishing you a great Christmastime.

[jbigley]

Merry Christmas, Rado.
To answer your question, Yes, stick tang knives were common on the frontier and elsewhere in the 18th C. George Neumann's book, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution has a whole section on knives in which stick tang knives are quite evident. Some are quite basic or "primitive", with the tang just jammed into an antler or piece of wood, but they were used. Full tang and half tang knife blades were also in use, and were imported without handles or scales in casks. The buyers made their own handles. --JB

[Rado]

Thank you for the quick and informative reply. I found a site where one can read the book online and the variety of different designs is very interesting. 
Also the fact that on most of them you couldnt see any hammer marks. Some look like simple, modern kitchen knifes.
So I decided to use the Sheffield blade that I got. I changed it slightly today. Reduced the curve at the spine and removed that...I dont know how to call that hook on the end of the tang.
Its carbon steel, so its ok I think.
This will be the belt knife.
And I will use a broad but short Scandi blade, maybe with antler for a handle, as my patch knife.



Thank you for you help!

[jbigley]

Sounds pretty good. Be sure to post pictures of the finished results. --JB

[Jerry V Lape]

Some thru tangs were secured by riveting the end of the stick over a metal washer. 

[Rado]

Thank you Jerry.
Thats what I wanted to do with the Finnish Puronvarsi blade and use it as the patch knife which will be attached to the bag strap.
Im just having a hard time finding a piece of antler in the right size. Now I think I will use a more slender blade (once when they were cheaper I ordered almost every available size).

And for the belt knife... I finally decided to order a Jeff White blade. It would look strange to have one knife with forging marks on the blade and the other one shiny and smooth.

[LRB]

  Good smiths did NOT leave hammer nor file marks on their blades or most any other work either, and they polished their work to at least a finished look. As far as my knowledge goes, blades without grips were never imported to be finished by the customer. Finished knives for trade were imported by the tens of thousands, usually half tanged with slab scales, and were the most common knife to be found in a mans belt. You will not find much if any brass on an 18th c. knife unless it was a repurposed sword. Guards are only found on daggers, and pins were always of iron. Most of the so called primitives in Neimanns book and others, have questionable to no provable documentation.

[rich pierce]

Here’s some pix of early stick knives, French to Dutch in style; maybe all over Europe. Table knives.




These will be top of my list when I get the forge set up late winter.

[Rado]

Thank you Rich Pierce!
I ve noticed that some of the knives mentioned in the book "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" might be similar to what is called a "Jagdnicker" in Germany and is part of the traditional costumes in Bavaria up to this day.
Makes sense. When German gun smiths were so influential in the designing of the longrifle, that they would also bring their hunting knives with them.

[jbigley]

While I can't quote chapter and verse, I can say unequivocally that blades were in fact sold--at least there  was an article about them written in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. (I even think Charles Hanson wrote the article). They were shipped in casks, and it was left to the purchaser to provide his own handle.
It is also true that many finished knives were imported--half tangs with boxwood(?) handles and iron pins. Interestingly, the blades tended to be fairly thin--1/16th inch was common. I have one such knife, purchased decades ago in Mackinaw MI, along with a modern beaded sheath. It is still serviceable and razor sharp. --JB

[Not English]

Rado,

I really like how you changed the looks of the Sheffield butcher knife. Personally I would put scales of some variety on and use it as my "go to" knife. Butchers were very common knives in the day. They were also referred to as scalpers. Any shape scale was used from slab to roundish and coffin shaped scales. if you were to look at old scalpers in books and museums, first impression would be early kitchen knives. I still keep an eye out for  old butcher/kitchen knives at sales that I can use and modify. I like to file a decorative notched design on the spine where your thumb would lie when being used.

[Rado]

I will do soemthing with it, thats for sure. But probably it wont be a part of my longhunter kit.
The Jeff White blade just looks much better. Maybe I will experiment a little with giving the Sheffield a patina in order to make it look less machine made. But this will never make me forget that it IS machine made.
@LRB
I hear ya. But there is still a big difference in the look between handmade without hammer marks and machine made. And the Sheffield just looks like what it is. I have to do something with that.

At the moment Im working on the smaler patch knife.
Im filing the cavity in the antler and in my opinion the "collar"(dont know a better word for it) doesnt feel very comfortable in the hand.
Not sure what to do with that. Maybe I will grind it down a little.
It was too short from the beginning but I didnt have any other with a fitting width. It was cut off right below the forking where I still have massive material instead of that porous stuff.

And Im also fitting a Yew handle(from a bow stave which wasnt the best quality but for an axe handle its good enough) to a little hatchet, which I recently purchased from a German smith on egun.de .

[LRB]

While I can't quote chapter and verse, I can say unequivocally that blades were in fact sold--at least there was an article about them written in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. (I even think Charles Hanson wrote the article). They were shipped in casks, and it was left to the purchaser to provide his own handle.
It is also true that many finished knives were imported--half tangs with boxwood(?) handles and iron pins. Interestingly, the blades tended to be fairly thin--1/16th inch was common. I have one such knife, purchased decades ago in Mackinaw MI, along with a modern beaded sheath. It is still serviceable and razor sharp. --JB

  I can say, "unequivocally", you will find no shipping manifests for unfinished trade knives in the 18th c., and I seriously doubt at any time before mid to late 19th c. I doubt the cutlers suppling the knives would ever have done that for fear of being judged by poorly finished knives, plus I doubt the cutlery guilds would have allowed it for the same reasons. Hanson is not the last word in trade knife history.
 

[jbigley]

While I can't quote chapter and verse, I can say unequivocally that blades were in fact sold--at least there was an article about them written in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. (I even think Charles Hanson wrote the article). They were shipped in casks, and it was left to the purchaser to provide his own handle.
It is also true that many finished knives were imported--half tangs with boxwood(?) handles and iron pins. Interestingly, the blades tended to be fairly thin--1/16th inch was common. I have one such knife, purchased decades ago in Mackinaw MI, along with a modern beaded sheath. It is still serviceable and razor sharp. --JB

  I can say, "unequivocally", you will find no shipping manifests for unfinished trade knives in the 18th c., and I seriously doubt at any time before mid to late 19th c. I doubt the cutlers suppling the knives would ever have done that for fear of being judged by poorly finished knives, plus I doubt the cutlery guilds would have allowed it for the same reasons. Hanson is not the last word in trade knife history.

Wow, I sure seem to have touched a nerve. Unintentionally.
Olive branch extended: Peace, brother.
--JB

[Rado]

Short update.
I ve given up on the patch knife because I can tell already that it will never look like an authentic longhunter knife. It rather looks like a poorly made Saami knife.
Instead Im in contact with Mr Matthews from the youtube channel Old South Forge and ordered a more authentic looking blade from him.

Meanwhile I finished a beltknife with a Jeff White blade. I made the handle by myself because I wanted it to have the more authentic three iron pins, instead two brass pins.
And now I read in the red handled knives thread https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=75634.0
that these knives are post 1800 an not revolutionary war...
So, are these handles completely unauthentic for the revolutionary war or just not as common as halftang handles with two small pins?

[Not English]

Rado,

My 2 cents is to just use it and don't worry about it too much. If you're like the rest of us. Your kit will be constantly evolving. Sometimes because you just like something, and other times because you learned something new. Have fun and enjoy the journey.