patch/ball/lube combination for repeat shots with no swabbing?

[DavidC]

I've seen some folks reference shooting multiple times without swabbing after each shot, how are you doing that?!

I've tried with my 54 and 45 and I usually have to break out a heavy range rod just to get the ball onto the load. What's the deal?

[JPK]

What barrel are your shooting? I lapped a 54 calibre Green Mountain barrel that I made my rifle with and have used 80 grains of 2FG GOEX a .530” ball and heavy pillow ticking with spit. Good for a six target match and I often place well at the end. It’s been many years since the rifle was made and the load is still working.

[Daryl]

Been covered before, but maybe time for it again. In order to use a combination that cleans the last shot as you load the next, there are a few 'things' that must
be adhered to. First, the ball should be from .005 to .010" smaller than the bore. Most of the guys up here use a .005" smaller than the bore, ball.
ie: .535 in a .54
--- .495 in a .50, etc.
A patch at least .0918" compressed, needs to be used, or better yet, 10 ounce denim works for me and has been working for 49 years.
Before even attempting to 'start" this ball and patch the muzzle must be smoothed. That means the usual 45degree angled cut by a tool in the barrel maker's lathe, must
be smoothed and polished so there are not sharp edges to the grooves or the lands.
In order to start this combination into the bore, a short starter should be used. In smaller bore sizes, this is not necessary as the ram rod in .25 to .40 calibre can be choked
up on and the patched ball can be shoved into the muzzle, with steady pressure straight down. The reason it work in these small calibres is there is little lead to move in the
small balls. The larger the ball, the more lead has to be "moved", inside the patch. A sharp crown will cut the patch, ruining the accuracy and clean shooting.
If you send me your e-mail in a PM, I will mail you a video showing loading in this way.
This crown shows the before polishing:

This crown is after.

This is the method, using 320 emery cloth, or 320 Wet/Dry paper. Turn the barrel or gun 90 degrees very 15 seconds or so. Rotate your wrist to rotate the paper or cloth in the
 muzzle.

[Daryl]

Short Starters. I REALLY like the ones made with antler, deer, moose or elk.
If made with the base, ie: the rosette, they are solid bone and hard. The weight
also helps in starting the ball. There were two methods of starting the ball. Hitting it with
a downward pounding motion, holding the "shaft" in your hand, or putting the little stud
I've CA'd into the starter's knob on the ball and smacking the top side of the starter with
my palm. This method pretty much guarantees the patched ball to go in straight, not pressured
on one side or the other, as can happen just by hitting it.  The hole in the starter is to put over
the rod for the last inch or so of seating the ball onto the powder. I give this starter a smack with
my palm, which slightly compressed the powder. I do the exact same each time I load. The reason
for this, is the same as when loading BP ctgs. It gives a slight and consistent compression of the charge
which ensures repeatable burning rate of the powder. In the accuracy game, IT all matters. Doing this
while chronographing shows positive results as opposed to just seating the ball on the powder gently.
The positive result is much closer shot to shot velocities, just as when loading and shooting BP Ctg. guns.

[DavidC]

I need to clarify a couple things. I'm using a short starter, the notes about cleaning the crown of the barrel are great! Thank you! 

I was using a .531 ball in a .54 with patches that take up the rifling as measured with calipers. I'm getting the ball started but I'm really struggling to get the ball down the barrel after the first shot. I didn't try a .535 but I have a box of them. I tried using tallow lube and oily jojoba patches. Is ballistol just the secret sauce?

I mean, I'm no Schwarzenegger but I can't be that weak...

[smylee grouch]

What do the shot patches look like?

[Frank]

Spit.

[Daryl]

Wet patches for target shooting with a water based lube will clean better than a grease or oiled patch - normally.
If the barrel has been shot with phony black powders, it might be rough. If that is the case, scrubbing the bore with a square of maroon Scotch Brite on a jag, wet with DW40 will
smooth it out somewhat, but will not salvage a badly pitted bore.
For simple target shooting, we use patches that are wet.  Wet with 10:1 water to water soluble oil, or WWWF + a tich of neestfoot oil. WWWF is Winter Windshield Washer Fluid.
We use this in the winter time as it won't freeze. The oil is in it to give some extra lube if it drys somewhat when shooting a trail walk in the summer time.
We carry wet patches in a tin, Sucrets, or one from Trackofthewolf.
When trying to put the ball down, don't just put the rod on the patched ball that is 5 or 6" down the bore and push, lift the rod up about 1/2" to 1 1/2" and then push down hard. That
little hit will help getting the patched ball moving. Do this in about 6" to 9" strokes, until the ball is on the powder. If you PM me your e-mail address I can send you a clip to show what
I am saying.

[Don Steele]

If you choose to shoot without running ( at least) a single "just damp" patch down your bore between shots...Following Daryl's recommendations is the way to do it. Using wet lubes at the range + all the other points Daryl makes, I've run strings of 40 shots without any wiping whatsoever. That said...I'm going to point out that there's a safety aspect to consider when deciding whether or not you want or need to run that damp patch down your bore before loading another round. We had a fellow at our club shooting a caplock rifle with Goex powder. This guy didn't "screw around" between shots at our BP range. He came back off the line, immediately measured a fresh charge, dumped it down the barrel (without wiping his bore), rammed home the next patch and ball and went back to the line...capped his piece and fired the next shot. He shot a lot with us and this was his consistent procedure. He was a very good offhand shooter too, btw.
THEN...one day..at the loading bench...while ramming home the next ball...the rifle went off. Not pleasant to see but fortunately the damage was limited to his hand ( he used a ramrod with a wooden knob on the end about the size of a baseball that filled his hand) and the roof over the loading bench that his ramrod went through...AND...the fact that after he healed up he never returned to the BP range.
Make of that what you will..I'm merely reporting an actual incident, not relaying an opinion of what "might happen", or what "could happen".

[snapper]

To be able to shoot all day you do not have to do anything to your muzzle.  I have shot all day for over 30 years in quite a few ML and have never done anything to the muzzles.

For the patches I use equal parts of rubbing alcohol, hydrogen peroxide and murphy's oil soap.  Patches are very damp.   For my .54 cal rifles, I do load a .535 ball with a precut round patch at .015".   I have to use a short starter.

Fleener

[bluenoser]

I'm with Frank.
I shoot a .50 GM using a .495 ball and .016" patch, a .40 GM using .395 ball and ( as I recall) .016" patch, a .54 Green River using .535 ball and (as I recall) .016" patch and a .50 coned Don Getz using .495 ball and a .016" patch.  Loading with a spit patch and not cleaning between shots, I can shoot all day and the last shot loads as easily as the first.  Accuracy is good and all can be loaded without a short starter, if necessary. Been loading that way for about fifteen or twenty years now and, yes, I did read Don's post.  Don's is the only first-hand report of such an occurrence I have read.
With the exception of hunting situations, I don't see myself ever returning to some other type of lube.

[bluenoser]

I have been thinking about Don's post.  I wonder if the longer flash channel in the capper played a significant role in the incident.  I can see that long channel perhaps providing a place for an ember to hide.  Mine are all flint.

[PAhunter]

I have used Crisco and bees wax about a 40/60 mix. works great.

[Bigmon]

When I first started shooting BP I had this problem also.  Heck, my brother and I used to hit the RR end against a tree just to get the ball doen.
Then I joined a BP club and listened to all the advice.  It was all good and in the end I started using MOOSE MILK that I made, put a dozen or so patches in a snuff can and added the MM.  Not floating but well soaked, then squeezed out the excess.
I could shoot a 12 or 15 shot course and never swipe.  Sure I had a very few times that my fifle finally clogged up, but very very few.  Never on a dozen shot course.
Used the same on all my rifles, works fine.  HAve done pretty well at events over the years.  But no more, eyes have just gone away.
Now, I never use MM when hunting.  I use bore butter or something like that, that will not rust my bore.  My rifle have been loaded now 10 days and never got my hammer back.  MM would be really bad for that.
Try it, can't hurt.

[recurve]

I shoot a green mtn barrel and had to steel wool the barrel(at the suggestion of Mr Dixon) and use mutton tallow (melted in a double boiler)dip patching 10oz denim (tight burns powder cleaner) squeeze out extra lube .  as a side note the British use mutton for lube for 300 years (must have been a reason). I find I can shoot several shots without swabbing without loss of accuracy   
before steel wool

after steel wool & using mutton tallow lube
  same lube in a B Hoyt barrel

[Eric Krewson]

You probably would do well to give your barrel a red scotch bright pad scrub, I have done this to all of my rifles, after they scrub they load as smooth as silk.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=Myzzloader+rough++barrel+scrub+on+youtube+video&type=E211US714G0#id=6&vid=c2e92898924a21f5e828a5b0dd02b32f&action=click

I went a step further on a barrel that I polished first and then crowned with a Joe Wood crowning tool in .54. Before coning I couldn't start a .526 ball in the tight bore without hurting my hand pounding it in, I felt like I was deforming the ball. After coning I can thumb start a .530 ball with an .018 patch.

I played around with the load and sights after the coning. I found my newly polished and coned barrel liked 85gr of 2f, a wool wad and the above mentioned .530 ball with a .018 ticking patch, I lube with Track's mink oil.

I had a little trouble seeing my front sight blade on my first shot, the blade was shiny and the sun came out. I blackened the sight and took two more shots, I can live with that. This is at 50 yards.



url=https://ibb.co/XjtxC90][/url]

[Darkhorse]

I'm going to try and put this in simpler terms than some previous posts. I've been loading this way for over 20 years and the only problem with it is it's not a hunting load.
First thing is to obtain a stainless steel range rod. Your wooden underrod will work but the range rod works better.
Next thing is to order a bag of .015" patch material from eastern maine shooting supplies. These woven cotton shooting patches are some of the best I've seen, with high integrity and toughness.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282631109885?hash=item41ce207cfd:g:XYgAAOSweRhanITm

This is probably the most important ingrediant of all...Mr. Flintlocks patch lube...is a slick wet lube that softens and removes black powder fouling. I don't use it for hunting as it dries fast and can rust your barrel. But it's the best thing I've found for practice sessions. I squirt it on a patch prior to loading making sure the patch is thorougly wetted. I start a brand new barrel on it, I've never needed to do anything to the barrel. The more you shoot the easier it gets to load as the barrel slicks up as it gets broken in.
 https://mrflintlock.com/bore-cleaners
 Basically that's it.

I will add something about range cleaning, at least how I do it. You are pushing fouling down the barrel each time you load a prb and eventually it will begin to build up in and around your touchhole. It's not  good enough to clean the barrel when this occurs, it must be removed. So I place a toothpick in the TH and a clean cloth under the frizzen, then pour a little water down the barrel, let it sit awhile, then shake the rifle to agitate the water, remove the toothpick and push the ramrod down sharply a few times. All that gunk should push out of the TH and your ready to start shooting again.
BTW the only thing I use to clean my barrels and fouled areas is water. Just plain old water.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Daryl]

I think you meant to say when you push fouling down the bore with a patch on the jag, you push it down to the vent area and that can cause plugging.
My patched balls are no where near the vent. They stop on top of the powder charge and ALL the fouling they push down from the first shot, gets blasted
out the barrel with that second shot - etc, and etc as the day goes on.
Never have to wipe - whether only 20 shots or 100 that day. After the shooting is over, it's time to clean the gun, once home. The only time I reload as fast as
I can, is when hunting moose.
I have a video of loading my .45 flinter after firing 45 t o 55 shots that day. It loads the EXACTLY same as the first or second one.
PM me your e-mail and I will show you how.  I will not keep your e-mail, if that is bothering you.

[Darkhorse]

I think this more accurately describes the issue; "During the course of a days shooting there  are times when fouling might become trapped and build up in the chamber area. This seldom causes  hard to seat problems but will cause other problems, mostly ignition."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Eric Krewson]

I have found the Hoppes #9 black powder patch lube and cleaner is another very slick patch lube that will let you load and shoot for a long time without wiping after a shot.

I use it in my rifles and when I shot a patched ball in my fowler. Before I polished the bore I could only shoot 2 shots from my fowler with the second one very hard to get the patched ball down the barrel, Hoppes #9 let me shoot 5 or 6 shots before I needed to wipe the bore.

Because I have read that it might cause a rust ring in a breech if a gun is left loaded for a period of time I use mink oil for my hunting loads.

[Waksupi]

I've used moose milk for years, and can shoot all day with no swabbing. I don't use short starters. They have caused every bulged barrel that has ever come into my shop. Frank Costanza had a collection of over 90 original shooting pouches, not a single short starter in any of them.

[Daryl]

How and why you load your rifle or smoothbore the way you do, depends on how accurately you want to shoot.
A question was asked and I answered to the best of my knowledge & experience, in what works for me. If you can shoot
as well as you need for your style and needs in shooting without using a short starter, or smoothing your crown, good for you.

[MuskratMike]

Is this "fouling problem" a regional or humidity problem? I can shoot any of my rifles and my smoothbore all day at the range or on a trail shoot and never have an issue. I usually use a ticking patch lubed with a 50/50 mix of neatfoots oil and T.O.T.W. mink oil, but some times just neatsfoot oil.

[Daryl]

We have shot in almost 100% humidity, to 6% humidity. We've never had a fouling problem. When humidity is high, there is however, or can be a problem keeping priming dry- after the first
shot is made. Then, wiping out the pan with a dry piece of cloth is pretty much mandatory under those conditions, however I've still never had a fouling problem during humid (or dry weather) shooting.
If your barrel has been shot with phony powders, fouling may be a problem due to the bore's condition.  Pitted bores pick up and build fouling.  A close friend of ours who passed from Cancer used to clean his barrel RIGHT AFTER SHOOTING was over, would do nothing else until his barrel and lock were cleaned. He used boiling hot water which was recommended by many gun rag writers in the 70's.  His barrel was pitted one end to the other from the flash rusting that happened every time he cleaned his barrel.  I think some steels used for muzzleloading rifles are more susceptible to flash rusting than others. Anyway, his barrel used to foul after Taylor was bequeathed that rifle. We tested it with WWWF and a .395" ball (.40 rifle). Right off the bat, we found the bore to be finely pitted, one end to the other & even with our loads, loading became a problem. Thus, we lead lapped the bore - twice. Now, it shoots just fine and continuously, without having to be wiped, even with quite new shooters using it. Of course, they use the combinations provided them - & without any trouble loading them with the rifle's hickory rod.
This barrel was salvaged. Some cannot be. That was the first barrel thus saved. Another was saved simply by "lapping" it with maroon Scotch Brite.

[Bigmon]

I have to add this to my testimonial regarding MOOSE MILK.  I have had near just as good results using plain old spit patches.  But they gotta be pretty "spitty".  Have been to many shoots over the years wher there were always a few using spit patches, cut at the muzzle, some using moose milk, and some swabbing between shots. All good to better shooters, always different winners. 
I will say that I too have at times steel wooled or used scotch brite in barrels to really smooth them up. 
Keep on shooting!