Author Topic: William Bailes double barrel replica  (Read 25348 times)

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2023, 08:04:07 AM »
Bob,
Dyson had some of those stub twist blanks but at a horrendous price.

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2023, 03:40:35 PM »
Hank,
To bad your not closer, I’d definitely help out.  Have help several friend with barrel work but I require them to to either run the machine, help running it or at least watch the process if I think that’s all there capable of. 
I know a few years ago there were damascus blanks floating around, wonder if anything is still out there?
Bob

Thanks for the offer Bob. Yes, you can still get Damascus blanks. They're priced at roughly $430 US plus shipping from the UK. Here's the link:

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ORIGINAL_DAMASCUS_BARRELS.html

These barrels could work up into a fine barrel set for a double flint reproduction dating late 18th to early 19th century if they have the right pattern. Some have a lump on the side for a lock rail. These would be fine for percussion double or very late era flint double. Any would be appropriate for a breech loader.

Hank 
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline bobw

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2023, 07:46:50 PM »
Hank,
Thanks for the link to the barrels, I’m sure they are the same ones I remember.  Very interesting, I figured those barrels would have been gone long ago.  Price is really not bad considering they are damascus, after all a common, nothing special, modern barrel blank for a single shot rifle is $260 and is all you get is a black 1.200 inch tube with rifling in the middle.  Might be fun to build a rifle with a damascus barrel but I already have three completely, scratch build single shots going now, one waiting and two customs too build on original action.  So it would be awhile before that could happen.  But, after some research I may buy a barrel, if nothing else just to have.  Might need to pick your brain for future project.
Bob

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2023, 09:10:32 PM »
Happy to help anyway i can Bob.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2023, 04:36:14 PM »
Been working on stock design of the Bailes repro. I have two full length side view photos to work from. One is a brass trimmed 12 bore c 1760, the other a silver trimmed 19 bore dated 1764. A method used by scale model makers is attempted to derive primary stock dimensions. This method relies on knowing at least one dimension of the subject being studied and a drawing or photograph. I’ve successfully used this method to build scale model airplanes with a high level of accuracy but will it work for this repro?



Pictured above is the Bailes 12 bore c 1760. Barrel length recorded as 32 5/8”, trigger pull length as 13 9/16”. This photo was loaded into the CAD program, reference lines drawn and measurements taken from the reference lines.



19.809” is measured from breech to muzzle in the copy of the photo shown above. Actual barrel length is 33 5/8”. Converting to decimal, 33.625”/19.809” = 1.6974”. To check accuracy, a measurement is taken from center of the butt to center of the front trigger in the photo. It measures 7.991”. Actual trigger pull length is 13 9/16”. Again converting to decimal, 13.5625”/7.991” = 1.6972”. Averaging the two values gives a conversion factor of 1.6973. So, 1” measured on the photo equals 1.6973” actual length. Checking this against known data gives 19.809(1.6973) = 33.6218” barrel length; 7.991(1.6973) = 13.5631” LOP.  Both are within 0.005” accuracy so we’ll go with the 1.6973 conversion factor.

From the raw data we find stock dimensions rounded to the nearest tenth:
   1.7” drop at comb;
   2.4” drop at heel;
   5.2” butt height;
   13.6” trigger pull length
   5.0” groove length;
   1.4” wrist diameter;
   1.9” top of wrist @ breech to forearm bottom;
   11.7” forearm length;
   26.8” stock length;
   3 degrees pitch positive;
   48.8” overall length.

CAD generated drawing of this stock:



Same method is applied to the 19 bore c 1764 using barrel length:
(Photo copyright Royal Armouries, Leeds UK used with permission under research license.)



Known barrel length is 39” so 39/6.556 = 5.9487 conversion factor. Stock dimensions from the raw data rounded to the nearest tenth:
   2.4” drop at comb;
   4.2” drop at heel;
   5.0” butt height
   14.0” trigger pull length;
   4.0” groove length;
   1.4” wrist diameter;
   1.8” top of wrist @ breech to forearm bottom;
   10.6” forearm length;
   26.3” stock length;
   9 degrees pitch positive;
   54.8” overall length.

CAD generated drawing of this stock:



Several major differences exist between the two, drop and shape of the butt most notable. May be bore specific or may be customer specific? Anyone here own a period related original English single fowler? Do these numbers compare with an original single? Obviously there’s many single barrel characteristics in these early doubles but i’m wondering how close these interpolated values come to the real thing? The goal is be as accurate as possible.

Hank   
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Rolf

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2023, 09:37:03 PM »
I've tried the same thing with Qcad and pictures of longrifles. I was told by several here in ALR that I could not trust my measurents ,due to unavoidable distortions in photos.
Do you correct for distortions?
Heres a link to the post I wrote about it:  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59896.msg599780#msg599780

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Dwshotwell

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2023, 09:54:02 PM »
Very cool. Thanks for “showing your work” as my math teachers used to say. When I read the part about averaging the two ratios with the difference being .001 of an inch, I had to wonder how small a difference the human eye (to be specific my poor eyes) can detect. Somehow I think this will pass the test!
David Shotwell

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2023, 11:13:15 PM »
I've tried the same thing with Qcad and pictures of longrifles. I was told by several here in ALR that I could not trust my measurents ,due to unavoidable distortions in photos.
Do you correct for distortions?
Heres a link to the post I wrote about it:  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59896.msg599780#msg599780

Best regards
Rolf

Great post on using Qcad Rolf. Distortion can be an issue but for how CAD is used here not so much. I wouldn't send picture generated DXF or IGES data to a machine. Too inaccurate. But for generating raw data to build an accurate model it works great. That's how we use it and those measurements can be trusted.
 
Very cool. Thanks for “showing your work” as my math teachers used to say. When I read the part about averaging the two ratios with the difference being .001 of an inch, I had to wonder how small a difference the human eye (to be specific my poor eyes) can detect. Somehow I think this will pass the test!

You're welcome David. I've often wondered the same. Anymore i put my glasses on just to see what i'm saying. I certainly hope this project does pass the test. In fact i'm counting on it.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2023, 03:50:49 PM »
Several questions popped into view while studying the stock of the two Bailes doubles pictured above. Well, the answer to all lie tucked away in the tutorial section:

Understanding the British Fowler Part 2 Locks and Stocks
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48844.0

Thank you smart dog for sharing that vital information. Chart below shows how close the Bailes stock data matches data gathered by Dave from his two fowlers:



Pretty dang close wouldn’t you say? Is it a statistically significant sample size? No but i’m totally confident with the data. We can use it to build a fairly accurate reproduction.

What’s most interesting about the two Bailes pictured above is the amount of positive pitch. At 9 degrees (Bailes 1764) pitch positive and 39” barrels, when shouldered properly, the line of sight will fall nearly 6” at the muzzle. The muzzle must be raised to compensate causing the butt to shift position with only the heel in shoulder contact. This creates a pressure point. The total amount of recoil would be felt at this pressure point when fired. Not a pleasant experience. Also, with that amount of pitch positive there is a tendency for pronounced downward muzzle jump. Recovery time would limit the opportunity for a quick follow up shot. As my ‘ole Pappy would say “That gun kicks like a mule and just as stubborn”.

But, these are two of the earliest known double fowlers created in England. Mr. Bailes was a pioneer, an innovator. He, along with Benjamin Griffin, laid the foundation for Henry Nock, Durs Egg, the brothers Manton and many others to build upon.   

Hank

 
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Offline Carl Young

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2023, 10:18:04 PM »
Hank, I'm really enjoying this thread and your meticulous approach to the project. I don't have anything to contribute, as your knowledge far surpasses mine. Just my compliments and admiration for your sharing this adventure with us.

Best regards,
Carl
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Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2023, 03:35:02 PM »
Thanks Carl. Nice to know it's being enjoyed. I'm exploring new territory with this project and will soon be seen just how little i really know.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2023, 09:09:31 PM »
Started the lock study. Below is pictured the subject of this repro. It’s silver trimmed, hallmarked 1768 as Jeconiah Ashley silversmith.



Initial impression: This is a high quality lock, only visible screws being cross bolt at the nose and bridle just behind the hammer. Through hole for mainspring retaining pin visible under frizzen spring. Lock plate proper measures 5.7” x 1”. Gracefully shaped hammer is 3.2” long and centered on the tumbler shaft. Top of the lower jaw has a peculiar radius. Top jaw is quite thin, jaw screw is ornately shaped. Arc of the hammer throw is 1.7”, which would place the tip of the flint almost at the top of the pan at the end of its downward stroke. Frizzen measures 1.7” tall, length 1.2”. There is no roller but notice how it’s shaped at the spring. Tail end of the stop appears to be engraved to represent the head of a cobra or serpent. Radius of the frizzen face is somewhat shallow, much more so than contemporary offerings. Of interest is noting height of the frizzen is the same as the arc length of the hammer throw and the peculiar radius of the lower jaw matches the hammer throw arc. Coincidence or this an ingeniously designed lock? Crappy looking drawing below shows rough geometry:



Next let’s take a look at the Bailes brass trimmed 12 bore:



Definitely of lesser quality in appearance. Hammer mounted off center on the tumbler shaft, plain features on the frizzen and spring, shape of the hammer not as graceful as the first example. There is no roller on the frizzen. Let’s have a look at one more: (photo copyright Royal Armouries, Leeds UK used with permission under research license)



This 1764 example is silver trimmed. Lock appears to be of similar quality to the first example. Frizzen bridle shaped differently, less fancy frizzen and spring but the frizzen has a roller. Pan shape is similar to the first and frizzen face appears to have a more pronounced radius than the first. Jaw screw shaped similar. On this example the frizzen spring on the left is somewhat shorter than the right to clear the cross bolt. Rounded hammers look out of place. Some argue they are not original to the gun.

What are your thoughts on these three locks? I have never seen a lock of this period and style up close and in person so i’m clueless as to how the internals look. Anyone have pics to share?

Hank 
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Longknife

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2023, 06:49:48 PM »
I have been following this thread with much interest as I started a SXS flint project a while ago and stalled on it.  After inspecting several sets of original Damascus barrels and finding none of them worthy I opted to use some 16 bore Belgium suppository barrels that were not Damascus. These barrels were in new condition, never mounted on a gun and never chambered. I have two sets that are both choked full and full. I was going to either ream out the chokes in one set or shorten them to have a two barrel set. And then I thought why not a three barrel set? I sent those barrels to B Hoyt and had him make me a pair of .62 caliber rifled barrels in the same profiles to interchange with the 16 bore barrels. I then made a couple of sets of correct breech plugs as shown in Brockway's books. I also made other parts and acquired a couple of wide stock blanks. The project stalled when I attempted to source ribs and join the two rifled barrels. Maybe this thread will get me to complete this long overdue project...LK




« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 06:53:47 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2023, 07:44:20 PM »
Interchangeable barrels -dang! That will be one sweet double. Looks like you're on the right track with the breech plugs. Which style you planning on using, Nock or Manton? Hope this doesn't come across as a shameless plug but my book addresses crafting both in complete detail. This is page 51 of the breech plug chapter:



Click on the web link if you would like to know more about the book. There is a 20 page preview there to download.

Feel free to give a shout if you want to "chew the fat" over your project. Willing to help any way i can. Let's see if we can get you going again.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Longknife

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2023, 06:27:10 PM »
Hank, My plugs look closer to the Nock style, but a little different, I can't follow instructions any way. Where is that link to your book?...LK
Ed Hamberg

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2023, 08:07:08 PM »
Hank, My plugs look closer to the Nock style, but a little different, I can't follow instructions any way. Where is that link to your book?...LK

LK, you can make the plugs you have into either one. Only difference between the two styles is a tapered, stepped in recess for the Manton. Web link is the globe icon just the left.

Hank 
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2023, 08:19:56 PM »
Got most of the Bailes lock detail worked out. Sorta. I think. Going with a three screw bridle and use the third screw as a tumbler stop to lessen hammer stop stress at the end of the stroke. While doing the layout and running simulations a problem surfaced if some of the angles “ain’t just quite right” as my ‘ole Pappy would say. On the high end the tumbler will hit the bridle first keeping the hammer from full stroke. On the low end the hammer stop will hit the lockplate first keeping the tumbler stop from doing it’s job. But, that’s why files were invented i suppose. Drawing below shows everything at rest:



Half cock:



Full cock:



Several thoughts come to mind, first is lose the weird looking top jaw screw. EDIT:< fixed that> Second is the location of the sear screw. EDIT:<fixed that>  On the original it appears to be on the same centerline as the tumbler shaft or pretty close to it. To move the location up requires changing the as drawn sear design, adding distance between the screw and sear leg. Adding distance, imo, adds trigger creep making a less crisp release. Third is the potential speed of this lock and tendency to eat flint. Given the size (mass) of the hammer and 1.7” throw it’s going to take more time for it to get up to speed, again imo. How massive must the mainspring be to give faster lock speed? With a heavy mainspring there will be considerably more stress on the flint possibly turning it into a flint eater. Not in the sense of a Manton V pan but wear will be accelerated, again imo. Everything fits and runs in simulation but there’s still plenty of details to work out.

Opinions?

Hank




« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 02:37:43 PM by Hank01 »
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2023, 09:31:34 PM »
There's lots of problems I see with this.  I would suggest getting your hands on a good period lock, or better yet a complete fowling piece to study.  A next best alternative would be some castings pulled from originals (including locks).  You could also purchase one of our round face English locks and this will put you in a good direction.  Best of luck.

Jim

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2023, 12:23:47 AM »
I have built several SXS flintlocks. I started with damascus breechloading barrels and commercial locks. Unfortunately, I didn't keep one for myself.  ::) Now I have the itchies for another. I think around 20 bore. Remembering how frustrating they are to build, and the incredible amount of time they took, and the fact that my time is worth &50/hr I have decided I'll buy an antique British SXS that is in good shape instead. It will be far cheaper that way. :P
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Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2023, 12:38:03 AM »
There's lots of problems I see with this.  I would suggest getting your hands on a good period lock, or better yet a complete fowling piece to study.  A next best alternative would be some castings pulled from originals (including locks).  You could also purchase one of our round face English locks and this will put you in a good direction.  Best of luck.

Jim


Thanks for the feedback Jim. Yep, i agree there's lotsa problems up there. Checked out your locks (and kits) a while back. All excellent work. While kicking around thoughts about this Bailes lock i wondered how the working parts of your lock would fit this lock plate. Do you offer just the internals? And perhaps in left hand too?

Having an original example to work from would be ideal. Realistically i don't see that happening any time soon. In the meantime we'll keep kicking this around. Might break a toe or shatter a window but one way or another we'll make it happen.

Hank
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Online Stoner creek

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2023, 01:00:41 AM »
I have built several SXS flintlocks. I started with damascus breechloading barrels and commercial locks. Unfortunately, I didn't keep one for myself.  ::) Now I have the itchies for another. I think around 20 bore. Remembering how frustrating they are to build, and the incredible amount of time they took, and the fact that my time is worth &50/hr I have decided I'll buy an antique British SXS that is in good shape instead. It will be far cheaper that way. :P

Forget making one. You ain’t got enough time. ☠️
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2023, 02:02:44 AM »
I have built several SXS flintlocks. I started with damascus breechloading barrels and commercial locks. Unfortunately, I didn't keep one for myself.  ::) Now I have the itchies for another. I think around 20 bore. Remembering how frustrating they are to build, and the incredible amount of time they took, and the fact that my time is worth &50/hr I have decided I'll buy an antique British SXS that is in good shape instead. It will be far cheaper that way. :P

Forget making one. You ain’t got enough time. ☠️
That's a fact. I ain't real speedy anymore. :P
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2023, 05:03:19 PM »
I have built several SXS flintlocks. I started with damascus breechloading barrels and commercial locks. Unfortunately, I didn't keep one for myself.  ::) Now I have the itchies for another. I think around 20 bore. Remembering how frustrating they are to build, and the incredible amount of time they took, and the fact that my time is worth &50/hr I have decided I'll buy an antique British SXS that is in good shape instead. It will be far cheaper that way. :P

Forget making one. You ain’t got enough time. ☠️
That's a fact. I ain't real speedy anymore. :P
My get up and go has got up and gone and I miss it the most from dusk until dawn. ;D ;D ;D ;D.(Don't know the author)
Using the rear bridle screw as a brake is a bad idea.It will bend or break and reproducing the mechanisms of most antique flintlocks by casting will produce a bunch of undersize parts.Just after I joined this forum I made 14 Twigg flintlocks based on the Davis external parts and only 10 were planned but customers furnished externals for 4 more.I hope you can find someone with lock MAKING experience and get this interesting project going and a good conclusion obtained.The 14 Twiggs had a mechanism with the bridle firmly anchored by 3 screws going thru "posts" and the sear was on an axle.
Bob Roller

« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 05:43:48 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2023, 08:16:32 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Bob. I agree using a screw as a stop is a bad idea. The bridle as drawn up there also anchors to the plate on posts. I'll get more pics/sketches posted to better show what's being considered. Pic uploader thing on here seems to be broken so i'll get 'em posted when it's working again.

02/02/2023
It's working. This is the plan for the bridle:


Hank


« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 02:42:56 PM by Hank01 »
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Hank01

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Re: William Bailes double barrel replica
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2023, 10:45:35 PM »
Lock study finished, parts drawn and dimensioned. Got material specified. All that’s left to do is buy some steel and build ‘em. The Bailes lock under study is a work of art. Never before have i seen or examined a lock exhibiting proportion and style as this 1764 example. The hammer is perfect in form with no irregularities. Each radius blends flawlessly into the next to create, quite possibly, the most graceful hammer ever used on a flint fired lock. Drawing below illustrates this point:



Same holds true for the frizzen with its flowing lines and upswept tail of the stop. All in all these will be impressive locks when finished. Here’s how they will look:



Internal parts may or may not be indicative of the original. They were designed using spare lock parts for reference and scaled to match the rest of the lock. This is what we have:



And the lock plate proper:



Should only take an hour or so to make everything once we have the raw material. Then again maybe i’m just plain nuts.

Hank
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.