William Bailes double barrel replica

[Jim Kibler]

As mentioned before, if your goal is to make a believable recreation of an 18th century fowling piece you need to get at least parts in your hand to study.  Working from pictures is not alone going to work.  Though your drawings capture some of what is present on the original piece there are a lot of problems or discrepancies.

If you're content to make something that looks somewhat like an original piece that would convince a person with little knowledge of original work, then your approach is just fine.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but just some advice.  I know this project is an enormous amount of work and some advice from someone who has gone down these paths may help.

All the best,
Jim

[Hank01]

"...Though your drawings capture some of what is present on the original piece there are a lot of problems or discrepancies..."

Jim, your input and feedback is appreciated and i thank you for it. Care to elaborate on what you see wrong up there?

Hank

[Hank01]

Gonna switch gears -time to get the "barrel mill" going. When finished this machine will turn any round or hex blank into a swamped barrel. It also doubles as a standard lathe with variable speed drive, 48" bed and 8" swing. Head stock is open just as an "oil country lathe" to accept a blank of any length. Overall concept:



Have some parts already ordered, going to scrap yard tomorrow to find more stuff for it.

I'm having a blast with this. This project is pure fun!

Hank

[Bob Roller]

Just WHAT can be scrounged from a scrap yard for making locks? I have made pairs of locks from the L&R Mantons and made my own mechanisms but that isn't cheap.Call McMaster-Carr and they will sell 1144 and 1075 in small quantities and the sears should be 0-1.
George Killen used to get flat spring steel from cars in the form of hood supp0rts and he annealed it in his coal stove in cold weather.
Most of it was Unknownium or other mystery metals and was a booger to work with.Look up McMaster on you computer and you should find all you need there for lock making.
Bob Roller

[Hank01]

"...Just WHAT can be scrounged from a scrap yard for making locks?..."

Going to look for stuff to build the barrel mill. But, one never knows what will turn up when digging through the bins. We use a lot of unknownium here on the farm for patch work and odd repairs. It might even be good for making swinging targets.

Hank   

[smart dog]

Hi Hank,
As someone who routinely does tasks that others would call a "waste of time", "too much work", "couldn't pay me enough to do it" and so forth, I applaud you for this project.  Your locks look like accurate renditions of the locks on the Bailes gun and as such and considering the time of the piece, don't represent the fully evolved English flintlocks of the 1790s and later.  So we should not expect them to function as well as those later locks.

Bailes did not make the locks, the lock forger, lock filer, and lock polisher did.  They represent close to state of the art during the 1760s when there was a transition away from round faced locks to flat faced locks on guns of quality.  In this case, the lock maker has a particular problem to overcome.  The locks need to be small but also wide enough to handle the large breeching of the barrels. Hence, the odd shape of the feather spring.  The top leaf of the spring is steeply angled upward because the plate is wide.  It is not optimum but a compromise given the requirements of the lock. I urge you also to consider a taller stud or tab on the end of the mainspring so the upper leaf sits even lower on the plate below the bolster.  I would hesitate to use any L&R mainspring design as a model.  Your deep bolster, based I assume on a modern lock, may not be how the original locks were made.  You can achieve the same geometry by having a narrower bolster and taller stud on the mainspring.  Also I urge you to shape the hook on the mainspring such that the end sits a little way up the foot of the tumbler when at rest and slides fully into the corner (instep) of the tumbler when at full cock.  That will give the lock maximum mechanical advantage sans a tumbler stirrup.  The photos below show Wogdon pistol locks.  The maker had to solve a problem similar to yours in that these are very small locks but the barrels they are fitted to are fairly large at the breech.  In the first photo note the tall stud on the main spring.       



In this second photo, note the position of the hook on the tumbler foot at rest.



Here it is at full cock.  Also note the shape of the end of the hook.  It is not just rounded over, rather it is spoon shaped such that the angle of the bottom sliding on the tumbler is perfectly matched to the angle of the foot



These are "state of the art" for the period 1770-1779, not much later than your Bailes gun.

dave

[Hank01]

Wow! Dave, you have provided the missing puzzle pieces. Thank you for providing this vital information. A deep bolster as drawn above is an attempt to circumvent the spring interference issue at the breech so common with modern lock offerings. As for the spring hook at the tumbler, having never seen the inside of a lock of this period, i simply guessed at how it should look/function. Now that i can see the internals of an actual period lock the issues with the current design become quite obvious. Your suggestions and necessary changes will be incorporated into the next lock revision. We just may get it right after all. Thanks again!

Hank

[smart dog]

I am rootin' for you Hank.  Good luck.

dave

[JV Puleo]

This is the subject of the project. It’s trimmed in silver, hallmarked 1758 bearing the mark of Jeconiah Ashley as the silversmith.

You should check out the latest Journal of the Arms and Armour Society. Leslie Southwick had an excellent article on the London silver marks. The JA mark which has long been attributed to Ashley is almost certainly wrong. It's John Allen. If I remember correctly, Ashley was a "plate worker" rather than a "small worker". Allen's company probably produced about 90% of the London silver for gun mounts, it continued under his apprentice and after him, his apprentice, in business nearly 100 years at the same address and specializing in gun and sword mountings.

[Hank01]

I am rootin' for you Hank.  Good luck.

dave

Thanks Dave.

 

"...You should check out the latest Journal of the Arms and Armour Society. Leslie Southwick had an excellent article on the London silver marks..."

In which volume/part can this be found? Tried looking it up without success. Did find a complete listing of all volumes through the Royal Armouries web site but no way to access any of them.

Hank

[Long John]

Friend,

I don't mean to toss a dog #$@* in your yard, here, but are you sure that this gun had the type of patent breeches (Nock, etc.) you have shown in your posts thus far?  I enlarged you first photo to 400% and I could not see where the patent breech butts up against the breech end of the barrel tube.  They might have French breech plugs. The French style breech is much simpler to make!

On my 1740 French double build I used a pair of smooth-bore barrel that Bobby Hoyt made up for me.  He refused to make the barrel walls as thin as I wanted (using 12L14 free machining stock) so my gun is too heavy.  But the breeching was simple and very easy to do with minimal machining assets - bench-top drill press and bench-top mini-lathe.

Building a double-gun is a challenge!  But without a challenge or two life is boring.

Good Luck!
JMC

[Hank01]

Toss all you want Long John. We have lots of shovels. Your right, breeching of the Bailes double is what Henry Wilkinson defined as "...a solid lump of iron screwed into the barrel to close one end, and the touch-hole was drilled through the side of the barrel above it." (Engines of War Section 3, pp 80-81) Yes, they are easy to make. I've made dozens using nothing more than threaded rod, a hacksaw, a dill press and a file.

Breech plug diagram posted above is in response to a sorta off topic reply regarding a late era English double barrel repro project.

So, your 1740 French and the Bailes c 1760 both would be proper with breeching as described by Henry Wilkinson. I'm sure you already know this but breech methods changed, at least in England,  after Henry Nock's patent of 1787. To see a very early double repro with Nock or Manton style breech plugs would be pure blasphemy. Makes me shudder at the thought.

I always welcome a challenge and this project is the biggest double build challenge ever. I'm having a blast with it!

Hank

[Bob Roller]

Decades ago I made a similar tumbler and mainspring then about 1970 I switched to the linked mainspring altogether.I may still have a profile gauge for that style of tumbler. All the Ketlands made by Chet Shoults were like the picture but minus all the extra filing on the bridle.I kept the design for a long time and then made the later,linked mechanism and on every lock I made afterward until 2019 when I dropped out of lock making.
Bob Roller

[Hank01]

"...I may still have a profile gauge for that style of tumbler..."

Interesting info Bob. Would you happen to have a photo or sketch of the gauge? I'd like to see it.

Hank

[Hank01]

So what does a picture of scrap iron and a box of junk have to do with building a William Bailes double barrel replica? Everything! The scrap iron is the bed for the “barrel mill” and that box of junk is the linear rail, ball screw and blocks for mounting the tools. This machine will shape the barrels for the Bailes double. Tomorrow we weld.

Hank

[Hank01]

Scrap iron is now the machine bed. Filling the center with non-shrinking grout will increase rigidity and resistance to vibration. T slot aluminum was originally planned for the bed but quickly dropped after doing some stress analysis. It's just too flimsy. Next we build a heavy wood bench for the machine to sit on.

Hank

[Hank01]

We're making progress -bench is built, machine bed in position on the bench. Rails, carriage slide and cross feed in position on the bed. Next we get that stuff bolted and welded together, install the carriage feed and build the flat taper jig. Making a running change here and there is slowing down progress but we'll have a better machine in the end. Yes, i'm chompin at the bit here wanting to turn those blanks into barrels now!

Hank

[Hank01]

Still making progress. Rails installed, ball screw for carriage feed and cross slide mounted. Tool post mounting plate installed. Cross feed and tool post mounting plate both had to be flattened as each had considerable lateral warpage. Took a long time to get everything parallel, square and flat before mounting the rails and ball screws into position. Ball screw for carriage feed feels almost too tight after adjusting the slide bearings. It may go bad with use so we’ll keep a spare on hand just in case. Next we build the drive and tool post and get some hand wheels on the feed screws. Putting off building the taper jig for now. Need to get the lathe up and running first to make parts for it.  Hoping to make barrels for the Bailes double within the next few weeks.

Hank 

[Longknife]

Looking good!!!!

[Hank01]

Looking good!!!!

Thanks Ed. I'ts taking way too long to pull everything together imo. Patience is not one of my stronger traits.



Are you wondering what a pic of an old grinder has to do with building a William Bailes double replica? Too bad the motor is fried otherwise i’d be tempted to use it to shape the barrels. I’m sure it’s been done before but i’m not at all comfortable using a grinder in that fashion. Instead, the right angle drive was salvaged and used on the lathe carriage feed:



After stripping the motor armature from its shaft, an adapter was made using the grinder disk nut, a short piece of black iron pipe, short sections of 5/8” and 1/4” steel rod and a flexible drive coupling. This adapter connects the carriage feed screw to the grinder shaft. A hand wheel salvaged from a junk horizontal band saw attaches directly to the  motor shaft. Everything mounts on a bracket welded to the lathe base. Don’t know the grinder head gear ratio but one revolution of the hand wheel moves the carriage 0.0625”. Pretty slow, perhaps too slow, but i’m sure it will do just fine for turning and tapering a barrel blank.

Hank

[Hank01]

Machine bed is filled with non shrinking grout, carriage and cross feed ready for action. Drive box built, bearings in place. Have yet to install driveshaft, backing plate and chuck. Tail stock slide ready for the tail stock. A few more hours work and we'll have an operational metal lathe. 



Looks like better lighting is needed. That's a pitiful looking pic.

Hank

[Hank01]

Machine bed is leveled, slide rails leveled to the bed, carriage and cross slide leveled to the rails. Drive shaft installed, aligned, centered and leveled to the bed and cross slide. Preliminary motor and pulley layout finished.



Had a helluva time getting one of the bearings into position on the shaft. They’re press fit so after heating the bearings and freezing the shaft we proceeded to press a bearing onto the shaft. It got stuck about halfway into position. No amount of pressure forced it to budge. For fear of ruining the shaft, the bearing was cut free ruining the bearing. So what happened to cause the bearing get stuck? The shaft had a high spot in it making it not a true cylinder. Probably should have checked it first but hey, who knew? The race from the ruined bearing was salvaged and used as a slip gage to draw file the high spot down to size.



After heating another bearing and refreezing the shaft everything went according to plan.

Next we weld the drive box to the bed, mount the motor, install the pulleys and drive belts and weld the chuck backing plate to the shaft. After that comes wiring and setting up the speed controller.  Installing the chuck will wrap up the head stock fabrication. When that’s finished we’ll have an operational lathe.

Hank

[Mike Brooks]

I think the easy part will be making the gun.

[Hank01]

Mike, believe it or not, this machine is coming together easier than some of the doubles i’ve built. The last double wasn’t quite as cooperative. But, it was my fault as an issue with the barrels dismissed as insignificant turned out to be highly significant. Because of this, breeching had to be remade and the stock recarved in several areas to fix the problem. It turned out good and is a fine shooter regardless of the set back. 

The biggest problem so far is the amount of time it’s taking to get this machine built. This, i suppose, should be viewed as a lesson in patience?

Hank 

[Mike Brooks]

It's amazing the old timers got those guns made with just hand tools.....