William Bailes double barrel replica

[Hank01]

It's amazing the old timers got those guns made with just hand tools.....

It is amazing. Makes my arms and back ache just thinking about it and a bit ashamed for not sticking to the "old way". I have often wondered if makers three centuries past had the technology we have today if it would be adopted or shunned as the "devils work"? I lean toward the former. In The Ain I Akbari, Abul Fazl Allami (court historian of the Mughal emperor Akbar of India) recorded the making of matchlock barrels circa 1570. Their method and technique was advanced for that era. Henry Wilkinson (Henry Nock's grandson) in Engines of War describes some of what it took to make a gun in the 18th century. Again, many methods and techniques were advanced for the era. It seems that as better technology became available, gun makers were quick to adopt the new technology. So, looking at it this way, it makes me somewhat less ashamed to rely on machine tools to simplify an otherwise tedious and exhausting task.

Then again maybe i'm just lazy.
 
Hank

[Hank01]

Guys n gals, a new lathe is about to be born.



All head stock parts installed, motor and VFD mounted and wired, belt pulleys aligned.



Teco L510 VFD takes 220V split phase AC and converts it to 3 phase AC to run the 2 HP 3 phase 3600 RPM induction motor. Speed range is adjustable on the fly from 0 to motor max RPM using the knob below the display. The VFD is programmed and all set to make some shavings.

Below is a barrel blank for the Bailes replica clamped in the chuck jaws:



Dial indicator shows 0.010” runout one inch from the chuck jaws. This gives nearly 1/8” total runout full blank length. Not acceptable. But, by adjusting the drive bearings and drive shaft alignment, the runout will be eliminated. To make a consistently tapered barrel there must be no runout. None. 

What’s next? First get rid of the runout then build the tail stock. After that comes the jig to mill the tapered barrel flats and finally make the taper jig to turn the round taper. We’re almost there. We’ll soon be making barrels.

Hank

[snapper]

So I got to ask.   Why build the lathe?   Cant buy one that will work for this long of stock?  Or just extra thrifty and like challenges?

Forgive me if I ask a really dumb question, I have no experience with a metal lathe.

Thanks

Fleener

[Hank01]

So I got to ask.   Why build the lathe?...

Good question -I've thought that myself several times. Maybe i'm just plain nuts? 

Seriously though, economy is one factor. Cost of a new lathe sized to the task starts at 5 grand not including freight charges, taxes and tooling. Forget about buying a used machine. Versatility is another factor. This machine is designed to also function as a horizontal mill. Most store bought lathes can't do that. Necessity is yet another factor. I've needed a lathe for quite some time now so why not build one (at a fraction of the new store bought cost) to include the capability of making octagon to round swamped barrels? Can't build a Bailes double reproduction without 'em.

Then there's the wow factor. Wow as in how the $#*! am i going pull this off? Complexity is nothing to fear IMO and this is the most complex gun building project, at least for me, ever. But, i welcome the challenge and the hundreds of details involved. It's definitely knocked the dust off of some rarely used engineering skills.

Hank   

[snapper]

Hank, thanks for the reply.

So what is your background?  Obviously, you have some machining and building skills that most people do not have.

Fleener

[Mike Brooks]

Well at least I know what the heck he's been making now! 

[bobw]

Hank, I’m curious what your measuring at .010?  Run out of the chuck, or the alignment of the spindle center line, to the bed?
Also, are you grinding the barrel flats or using an end mill?  How are you indexing?
When I turn a tapered barrel I do it between centers with a dog driving the barrel.  The off set is done with the tail stock set at half the desired taper.
Bob

[44-henry]

Neat project, I wonder how the rigidity is going to be, however. Are you using it as a manual, or CNC?

[Hank01]

...So what is your background?...

30+ combined years as a process quality engineer, engineering manager and general manager. Oh, and the college thing too. >yawn<

Well at least I know what the heck he's been making now! 

One helluva paper weight eh?

Hank, I’m curious what your measuring at .010?... 

Spindle run out. It's tilted up and leans starboard. Chuck runs +/- 0.0025". Not bad but not as true as i'd like to see. We'll get the spindle lined up first then get the chuck closer to zero. We'll cut the flats with an end mill using a positive lock index to rotate the blank 45 degrees at each pass. Round taper is turned between centers using a taper jig to guide the cross feed. Thought about doing the taper with the tail stock but with the jig, once it's set up, it can stay in place and won't have to fiddle with the tail stock at every setup and/or change over.

Neat project, I wonder how the rigidity is going to be, however. Are you using it as a manual, or CNC?

 

The machine itself is rock solid but don't know yet how much deflection will come from the rails. Won't know for sure until we get into some heavy turning. It's strictly manual.

Thanks for watching. Keep those cards and letters coming! 

Hank

[Mike Brooks]

If making guns were that complicated for me I would have quit before I started. 

[Metalshaper]

Hank,

after the spindle is aligned and corrected, what steps are you going to try to improve the run out of the chuck?
improvements to the back plate.. mounting alignments.. internal grinding of jaws to  true tolerances???
Just curious.

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Hank01]

If making guns were that complicated for me I would have quit before I started. 

And this comes from a man that works with buckets of molten metal. 

...after the spindle is aligned and corrected, what steps are you going to try to improve the run out of the chuck?...

Jonathan, i find it simpler to diagnose the issue in two steps: First check the back plate after removing the chuck. It must be dead center and machined perfectly perpendicular to the spindle. The holes for the chuck mounting bolts (bolt pattern) must be centered to the spindle center line. If the plate is warped or off center then if not fixable it must be replaced. An off kilter bolt pattern can be fixed if not too far off by offsetting each hole a tad. Make 'em egg shaped in other words to allow some "wiggle room" to bring the chuck into better alignment. That was the case here. The bolt pattern of the back plate was off just enough to cause the chuck to sit off center to spindle center line. By reworking the bolt pattern the run out was reduced to an acceptable level. The second step, if the back plate is determined a-ok, involves thorough inspection of the chuck. This is best accomplished using a CMM. Luckily we didn't have to do that.

And now (drum roll please) I'm happy to announce a lathe is born. Date and time of birth: March 30, 2023, 2:05 PM. Birth weight: 750 pounds. Give or take a few pounds. Length: 62 inches. Place of birth: United States of America.

Got the spindle set true and the chuck adjusted to give +/- 0.0015” run out. Bearing tolerance and chuck precision stack up to 0.001”. Looks like that’s as good as it will get without installing high precision bearings and chuck. 

Eager to try it out, a short length of schedule 80 black iron pipe was clamped in the chuck, tooling adjusted and the drive powered up. The machine ran incredibly smooth up to 2000 RPM. Harmonic vibration set in above that indicating an unbalanced spindle. We’ll have to work on that later.
 


Made several light passes along the pipe to get a feel for the rigidity of the carriage, cross feed and tool post. Aggressive cuts gave considerable chatter, some of it due to the crappy cutters in the tool post. The majority is caused by deflection of the carriage feed, the ball screw to be specific. Was not pleased with the ball screw when first installed. We’ll have to replace it.

Cut a few rings into the pipe to see how it does with making bands. It did ok. Turned a tapered flare into the end of the pipe. That did ok too. As you can see in the pic below, there will be no problem keeping the barrel wall concentric to the bore:



This will be even better with the addition of the tail stock to turn a blank on center.

All in all i’m satisfied with the machine so far. Except for the ball screw and spindle balance. Here’s the test piece compared to the drawing of the Bailes barrel:



It doesn’t look anything like the drawing but it’s not supposed to. It’s a piece of black iron pipe used to test the new lathe. And guess what? It's a working lathe.

Hank

[Metalshaper]

Hank,

thanks for addressing my question!  I was thinking back plate and bolt positions? but I'm mostly a self taught machinist, so I was hoping my
thinking was somewhere in the ballpark. Appreciate your experience and allowing us to follow along..

Respect Always
Jonathan

[Bob Roller]

Grinding the jaws of a 4 jaw chuck to true it up??I always used the adjustments offered by a 4 law chuck and an indicator on the piece being turned assuming it was round to begin with.A 3 jaw chuck can be trued with a grinder and a set up that is usable.
Bob Roller

[Hank01]

You're welcome Jonathan.  Mr. Roller brings up a good point: An independent four jaw chuck has the built in ability to negate run out through separate adjustment of each jaw. This, obviously, can't be done with a three jaw or self centering four jaw chuck. This is where the need to have an accurately aligned spindle and back plate comes in.

Thanks Bob!

Hank

[Metalshaper]

Hank and Bob,

noticed my mistake when I reread my note..   figured at this point someone was gonna point out the faux pas.
I know the difference, just couldn't get my thoughts straight. symptoms of the lingering long covid I guess?

Respectfully
Jonathan

[bobw]

Hank, Here is my octagon machining fixture setup on my mill, side milling.  The barrel blank needs to be very rigid to eliminate chatter.  The tail stock is offset to half the total taper I’m looking for.
Bob

[bobw]

Hank, When turning a barrel, chatter is not your friend and a real issue.  I use both a follow rest and a steady rest.  The follow can only be used for straight cuts.  The steady is used for tapers.  Are you building a steady, at least, into your design?

Another photo of a half octagon barrel machining.
A couple of turning the same barrel to a tapered round. Both steady and follow rests being used.  The barrel blank is 1.20 inch diameter and still chatter is a continuous issue.
Bob

[flatsguide]

Bobs, in the last photo I assume you are cutting a taper and using the steady, but I’m having a hard time figuring out what is going on. Are you making a bbl.?Would appreciate it if you could explain it. When you are machining an swamped octagon or do you take say three different sections of straight tapered cuts then blend the joins by draw filing?
I thought that Hank was making a machine that would allow for following a swamped profile that the cross slide would follow but I’m not sure.
Thanks Richard
P.S. Bobw, have you had a chance to try a high helix angle end mill on a barrel? I was wonder if that type end mill would reduce chatter.

[bobw]

flatsguide, I do not cut swamped barrels, straight tapered octagon only.  Yes, this is the same barrel as shown in the fixture machining the octagon, the lathe is running in the last picture.  This barrel is for a custom built single shot rifle, built from castings, and is quite small in diameter.  These pictures were just for showing the steady and follow rests.  (I just figured out how to do pictures here) I like using my quick change tooling with insert style tips but have found they just don’t work machining long slim barrels.  I can’t get close enough to the follow rest with the quick change, so I go old school with the lantern style holder using a very sharp brazed carbide tool, as shown in the second picture.  In the last picture I believe I am stepping the barrel down to size with short straight sections. I will then start the tapering.  No matter what method used to machine a long tube, the part needs good support or chatter will be introduced. When milling the flats I use a 6 flute carbide end mill, side milling.  My setup is very rigid and as long as I do my part and set everything correctly I get no chatter.

Below is a picture of a 13 inch, 54 cal. barrel for a fantasy build I did a couple years ago.  Tapered and flared and a turned muzzle.  And yes, I did have chatter issues, even on this short barrel.
Bob

[Hank01]

...noticed my mistake when I reread my note..

No worries Jonathan. You're fine. That's why we're here -open discussion and exchange of thoughts and ideas.

...I thought that Hank was making a machine that would allow for following a swamped profile that the cross slide would follow...

Spot on Richard. Cross feed is disconnected from the slide so it can follow a taper jig. Concept is similar to a pantograph.

Hank, When turning a barrel, chatter is not your friend and a real issue...

Yup. Chatter is not a friend nor is it welcome when it comes to visit. While choice of tool can contribute to chatter, work piece rigidity is a prime factor IMO. After all, chatter is nothing more than the result of vibration when either the tool vibrates against the work piece or vice versa? Your set up appears quite robust, not prone to chatter. It's a good looking set up; it's easy to see by keeping a reasonable depth of cut and adequate coolant flow a barrel of quality can be produced with minimum chatter.

Another cause of chatter biggie, IMO, is the condition of the carriage and cross slide feed. Obviously, a worn/defective feed screw and/or bearing creates slop -a sloppy carriage and/or cross feed is not an accurate system and highly prone to chatter. That's what we're dealing with. There's just enough slop in the carriage feed ball screw to create serious chatter with a more aggressive cut. It must be replaced. We still have a usable machine, it will just take longer to do the job.

...Are you building a steady, at least, into your design?...

   

There is no plan for a steady rest. It'l be in the way when taper turning. But, we will need a spider as nearly half of the barrel blank is on the opposite side of the chuck in the head stock when taper turning.

Hank     

[Hank01]

So what about the lathe tail stock? An old bench top drill press was pulled out of the machine “boneyard” to salvage its head stock. It’s a heavy, well made cast iron unit:



Chuck is junk (we have a new one ordered) but the quill and spindle are in excellent shape. It has bearings rated at 3100 RPM, which is more than capable of handling lathe operating RPM. They’re solid and show negligible indicated run out. It will make a good, heavy tail stock. Just not sure how to get it mounted on the slide as we’ll need some degree of adjustability. We’ll get it figured out. Eventually.

Hank 

[Mike Brooks]

JB Weld!

[HSmithTX]

If your existing ballscrew uses a 2 piece nut you can grind the shim between and tighten the ballnut, I don't remember seeing a machine tool ballscrew that didn't have a two piece nut. Lead screws are different animals. Go SLOW, a couple thousandths of backlash in the nut will come out with a few passes of a good stone on the shim, and you can only shim it back out when it gets too tight in half thousandth increments.  If your shim is thick enough a set of gauge blocks will help you determine how much to take off the shim in one adjustment.  Leave 2 or 3 tenths (.0002-.0003") backlash in the ballnut, it will destroy itself right quick if it's too tight. Hope this helps. 

[Hank01]

JB Weld!

And duck tape

...Lead screws are different animals...   

Thanks for the great advice! What we have is a ball screw bearing issue. It's junk. This is what we have:
 


In retrospect I'd been far better off to follow my instinct and fit it with a rack and pinion carriage feed and half nut with a lead screw. But no, thought i'd save a few $ and go with just a ball screw feed. Not the best decision. May decide to retrofit the machine with a rack and pinion drive. We'll see how the repair pans out first.

The drill press head is now an official lathe tail stock. Popped a new chuck on the spindle, figured a way to get it mounted to the slide then got it lined up and centered to the chuck and lathe spindle. This video shows the machine running in test mode with a Bailes 19 bore barrel blank clamped between centers:<EDIT> If you don't see the captions, turn on the CC mode in the video viewer. </EDIT>



We have a lathe!

Hank