William Bailes double barrel replica

[LynnC]

I would agree with Mike that in original barrel sets that the mating barrel surfaces were likely filed so that they could be pinched together and be more parallel to achieve the desired point of impact. Filing would be zero at the breech and tapering to some point 1/3 to 1/2 way to muzzle then tapering back to zero at the muzzle. I’m sure you could calculate the necessary depth of cut at your chosen pinch point.

You have a heck of a project going here. You may soon be in demand making barrel sets.

Good luck……Lynn

[Hank01]

Thanks Lynn. This is the most complex project ever and it's stretching my engineering and gun making capabilities. That's a good thing. It's a welcomed challenge.

As for regulating barrels, Delbert Whitman Jr. & Reid Bryant posted an excellent article on the Shooting Sportsman web site a while back. The page is now missing some pics but i have them on file:
 



These show packing between barrels to help bring them into alignment. Top top and bottom ribs obviously hide the packing once installed. The Bailes barrel set has no bottom rib. Here's the link to the article https://shootingsportsman.com/barrel-regulation/ if you care to have a look at it. 

Hank

[LynnC]

A very interesting article. It makes sense to pinch in the barrels to the spacer blocks and braise them.

Do you have underside and muzzle end view of the Bailes barrels?  That would tell us alot.

Thanks for the article.

[Mike Brooks]

I have seen no visible spacing blocks on barrels without a bottom rib. I had the barrels apart 2X on my old flint english SXS to clean up and resolder. There were no spacers of any kind.

[Hank01]

A very interesting article. It makes sense to pinch in the barrels to the spacer blocks and braise them.

Do you have underside and muzzle end view of the Bailes barrels?  That would tell us alot.

Thanks for the article.

You're welcome Lynn. No pics of original Bailes but we do have pics of the new barrel set posted below.

I have seen no visible spacing blocks on barrels without a bottom rib. I had the barrels apart 2X on my old flint english SXS to clean up and resolder. There were no spacers of any kind.

Nope. No spacers. Having torn down many old barrel sets i have yet to see spacers in any of them. Most have what looks like clay packed between the barrels. Whatever works i guess.

We now have the barrels regulated and joined with top rib installed:



After brazing the barrels together, a new spacer was made and installed at the muzzle using low temp silver solder:
 


This spacer mics 0.075”, 0.013” thicker than the original. This puts convergence closer to 30 yards, which is ok by me. It also serves as the loading rod keeper. Originally the top rib was to be fashioned from strip steel. Shaping and fitting was problematic so strip steel was dropped in favor of square bar stock. A quick and dirty jig was set up on the band saw to cut the square stock in half on the diagonal:



One piece was used for the top rib:



After fitting to the barrels, the new rib was “clamped” to the barrels using nails and tightly twisted wire loops:



Then the rib was soft soldered to the barrels:



What a mess. Took the better part of a day to get this mess cleaned off. Next time i’ll use thin gauge solder instead of the heavy stuff. But, it cleaned up ok finding only a few minor pin holes in the solder seam. Not sure what to do about that. May try to fill them in or maybe just leave it as is. One would have to look pretty hard to see ‘em after bluing the barrels.

So here it is, the barrel set complete, in the white and ready for the next phase of the project. Muzzle view:



Top side at the bands:



Bottom side at the bands:



Bottom side octagon:



Top side octagon:



We gave the new barrel set a ring test. If good, the barrels will ring and reverberate as a bell with a sharp, clear tone after being struck. If there is a broken tone or dull thud then the barrels are bad and can not be used. This barrel set passed the test.



Only six more things to do with the barrels: Second proof test to make sure they hold together after firing; engraving and stamping; add loading rod pipes; add the sight; add the barrel key keeper; final sanding, polishing and bluing. Proof test comes first then engraving and stamping. The remainder happens as the build progresses.
 
We’ll start on the locks in the next phase of the project. Thanks for watching!

Hank

[Bob Roller]

At the end of this dissertation on the barrels there has appeared a picture of a record album titled "Country Gentlemen 25 Years".
The "Gentlemen" are one of my all time favorite groups in this genre and their former banjo player,Eddie Adcock called yesterday to
see if my wife and I are OK.I also knew the mandolin player,John Duffey who passed away in 1996.How did this happen?
Bob Roller

[bobw]

Hank, barrels are looking good.  How about some specs?  Length, width, weight and I don’t remember the bore.
Bob

[Hank01]

At the end of this dissertation on the barrels there has appeared a picture of a record album titled "Country Gentlemen 25 Years".
The "Gentlemen" are one of my all time favorite groups in this genre and their former banjo player,Eddie Adcock called yesterday to
see if my wife and I are OK.I also knew the mandolin player,John Duffey who passed away in 1996.How did this happen?
Bob Roller

Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Mr. Roller. As for how it happened? Beats me.

Hank, barrels are looking good.  How about some specs?  Length, width, weight and I don’t remember the bore.
Bob

Thanks for the compliment Bob. It means a lot coming from a seasoned barrel maker. Here's some specs:



No wait -that's not it. Here's the real @#$%/!!:
11 bore (.75 cal), swamped octagon/round, true cylinder bore both barrels, joined SxS by brazed seam and single rib.
OAL: 33 1/2"
Weight: 4.2 pounds
Width: 2.3" @ breech, 2.0" @ wedding bands, 2.075 @ muzzle

Barrel blanks started out at 6 1/2 pounds each. Finished barrels weighed in heavier than preferred but proper stocking will create a well handling double.

Hank

[Hank01]

Not had a lot of time to spend on the project lately so today was designated William Bailes double day. Had two of the trigger guard parts cut and shaped and decided to get the finial cut and shaped then get everything soldered together. The Bailes 1760 is trimmed in silver. We’ll sand cast a silver trigger guard so a master part is needed and that’s what we’re doing -making a master trigger guard. Here’s the original finial:



Started off with a chunk of 1/8” thick strip steel with pattern attached:



Removed the majority of metal on the band saw then with files and a rotary tool and cut off wheel removed the rest of it.  Final shaping completed using files and sandpaper:



Here’s the parts ready for assembly:



Parts were laid out against the stock pattern to find angles and dimensions before soldering them together:



Once we had the correct angles and position the tang and bow was clamped down and soldered together:



Same procedure followed for the finial. Once soldered the assembly was again checked against the stock pattern to make sure everything is in proper location:



Finial is impressive:



Had to fill in a few voids and uneven spots. Good ‘ole Bondo worked just fine. Final sanding and polishing followed. Adding tabs and protective coating finished the fabrication:



The Bailes 1760 trigger guard master is ready for the sand mould:




Had this part been made as an actual steel trigger guard then everything would have been arc welded together instead of soft soldering, filling any voids with additional weld. Using Bondo on a finished part is pure blasphemy if not idiotic. Since this a master part for use in sand casting, shortcuts were taken to provide a perfect finish, smooth seams and uninterrupted radii. Any imperfection in the master will show up in the part cast from it so the master must be as close to perfect as possible. The first cast silver trigger guard will tell the story but I think we nailed it with this master.

Hank 

[Jim Kibler]

Looks pretty flat and two dimensional.  Did you have castings pulled from original guns of the period in hand to help guide you?

Jim

[Mike Brooks]

That front finial isn't going to sand cast well. You might consider sculpting the front finial the rest of the way and find somebody to investment cast it.

[Bob Roller]

When are the parts that make it a gun,the locks going to start? I can't make any parts now but can be a kibitzer
Bob Roller

[Hank01]

Looks pretty flat and two dimensional.  Did you have castings pulled from original guns of the period in hand to help guide you?

Jim

You have a keen eye Jim. Finial is near net shape. Can't tell from the pics but the bow has some cross section taper. Tang is flat with a small radius on the top corners. It's this way by design to allow plenty material for final shaping and polishing.

 

That front finial isn't going to sand cast well. You might consider sculpting the front finial the rest of the way and find somebody to investment cast it.

Mike, this will be my first time casting silver so i'll take your word for it. Been reading everything i can find concerning casting silver and so far the key take away is silver can be a bit of a pain if unfamiliar with it. And it likes to shrink. Sometimes a lot. We'll be experiencing the joy first hand sometime soon. May have to change the master. Maybe? I dunno. Had to slash the project budget so outside sourcing is not an option.

When are the parts that make it a gun,the locks going to start? I can't make any parts now but can be a kibitzer
Bob Roller

We're getting there Bob. Need to get the piddilty stuff out of the way first. Feel free to kibitz away my friend.

Hank

[Jim Kibler]

I would be concerned about having enough stock to get a proper shape.  You might have enough, but it looks awfully thin. 

I think I would basically shape out the entire form, but just leave a touch of stock on the pattern.

[Bob Roller]

I will refrain from the kibitzing of a project I can't start and admire the ambition shown in it and making a lathe to turn the barrels
is more than impressive.
Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

The front finial will not fill with sand casting. Probably better off leaving it square then shaping it as you have done your master. You have a lot of sculpting to do there too. Be aware that silver work hardens rapidly.

[Pukka Bundook]

Just a late not on barrel joining;

Many originals were filed flat where they joined, so that the barrel walls were Half the thickness at that point.
This meant that the two barrel walls together made up the required thickness, each barrel adding strength to the other.
This kept the overall width as barrow as possible, with no spacers at all.

Best,
Rich.

[Hank01]

I would be concerned about having enough stock to get a proper shape.  You might have enough, but it looks awfully thin. 

I think I would basically shape out the entire form, but just leave a touch of stock on the pattern.

Parts made from 1/8" thick strip. May be too thin. We'll see how it goes.

The front finial will not fill with sand casting. Probably better off leaving it square then shaping it as you have done your master. You have a lot of sculpting to do there too. Be aware that silver work hardens rapidly.

Thought about leaving the finial square. May be further ahead to make a new master and forget about trying to make this one work. Might be able to say i know what i'm doing after this adventure in silver? But for now i'll just say "sure would be nice to know what i'm doing". And yes, there will be a lot of delicate filing to get the whole thing into shape.

I will refrain from the kibitzing of a project I can't start and admire the ambition shown in it and making a lathe to turn the barrels
is more than impressive.
Bob Roller

Thanks Bob but we can still have fun with it!

Just a late not on barrel joining;

Many originals were filed flat where they joined, so that the barrel walls were Half the thickness at that point.
This meant that the two barrel walls together made up the required thickness, each barrel adding strength to the other.
This kept the overall width as barrow as possible, with no spacers at all.

Best,
Rich.

I've torn down dozens of old barrel sets from damascus to modern steel and have yet to find a spacer between barrels. The most recent tear down, a Parker 10 bore set, had what looked like some type of clay packed between the barrels.

Hank

[snapper]

I keep wondering why you simply don't cast a strip of silver and make it into your trigger guard?   You did it with a piece of steel, do it with silver.

I am sure there is a good reason why you don't, but I have no experience with this this.

Fleener

[Hank01]

I keep wondering why you simply don't cast a strip of silver and make it into your trigger guard?   You did it with a piece of steel, do it with silver.

I am sure there is a good reason why you don't, but I have no experience with this this.

Fleener

Yup, there's a reason Fleener. It could be made using silver strip just as the master pictured above and soldered together. I'm not good at soldering silver. I don't know anybody good enough at soldering silver to make the seams "invisible". I'm sure a good silversmith can do it, i just don't have access to one that can. So, the short answer is the trigger guard needs to be seamless. Casting it as one piece does that.

Hank   

[Hank01]

Started looking into trigger guard investment casting after Mr. Brooks suggested outsourcing. One thing led to another and another then i ran across an Autodesk Instructable put together by a gal that says she knows Jim Kibler. This is the link instructables.com/Silcone-Mold-Making-for-Investment-Casting-Pendant/ if you care to take a look at it. With the help of videos and many other sources of information i now have working knowledge of vacuum assisted investment casting. We can build the equipment needed and be well on the way to successfully casting silver. So, a special thank you goes to Mike Brooks and katwerre for sowing the seed of insight that guided me to the path of discovery. 

What else is happening? Started work on the triggers. I prefer to have the triggers ready to go before starting on the locks. (Sorry Mr. Roller, we’ll get to the locks as soon as possible.) Prototype triggers were hacked out of 1/4” steel plate using an angle grinder and finishing up with files. After doing some layout each blade was ground to near final thickness:



Shape of the shoe was drawn and excess metal hogged out on the band saw and bench grinder.



Then it was on with the files to bring everything down to size:



After final shaping a trigger plate was crafted from 1/8” thick strip steel and the triggers fit to it:



The trigger assembly was placed against the stock pattern with a lock and the trigger guard master in approximate final location with a pic of the original below it:



Comparing the prototype to the pic of the original brings out several problem areas. First, the trigger plate is too short. Let’s look at another Bailes double from the same time frame (ca 1760):



Notice how the trigger plate begins at the bow/final junction and ends at the beginning of the tang/bow junction. The prototype is clearly too short. I simply messed up on that. Trigger shoe shape is pretty close with both trigger shoes being too long. Also, the web radius is too wide at each trigger shoe transition. A pattern for late 18th century triggers was used for prototyping and they’re clearly not a good match. This is quite apparent by comparing  the pic of the original to the prototype above. But, the trigger assembly is a prototype. Where to go from here? Make the trigger plate longer, shorten the trigger height and adjust the web radius to better replicate the original. At least we’re not starting completely over. That’s why we make prototypes. See anything else that needs attention?

Hank

[Mike Brooks]

Lots of the English guns I've had apart had long trigger plates the extended a good way under the trigger guard with a slot that corresponds with a hook on the trigger guard. I have one by Nock somewhere around here. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow.

[Hank01]

Got the triggers built. A bit more polishing and they’re ready to drop into the stock. This set doesn’t look a whole lot different from the prototype but with shorter shoes and a slightly different angle to the blades. Trigger plate is longer and should fit the stock perfectly:


Too bad there is no commercially available double barrel false breech or standing breech or “thing behind the barrels”. No matter what it’s called the only alternative is to make a double size version and face the challenge it presents head on. I usually craft this part from C channel after removing one leg. This works great for round barrels but not so great for octagon barrels. Given the corners must be shaped to match the profile of the barrel flats,  the extreme web thickness of C channel would create an awkward transition between the face and tang of the false breech. So, we’ll scratch this one out using 1/4” and 3/16” strip steel welded together. Did i mention the challenge this presents?  We start off by making a face pattern using a soft wood strip 1/4” thick:



After shaping the pattern to match the hooks, hook outlines are drawn on a length of 1/4” thick strip steel. Holes for the hooks are then shaped in the steel:


After fitting the face to the hooks and barrels (this takes a long time to do!), the hooks are ground flush to the back side of the face:



After cutting the face to approximate width, a length of 3/16” x 2” strip steel is cut to use as the tang. Grinding a bevel in the mating edges and clamping finishes the weld set up:


After welding together the weld is ground flush and corners shaped to match barrel flats:


Tang outline is drawn then cut to shape:



Profile of the facet is outlined on the face and tang. Shaping of the facet begins by using a drum sleeve sander in the Dremel:



More metal is removed using a cut off wheel in the Dremel. A small weld void is uncovered in the process:


Void is filled with more weld and shaping continues:



Here it is 90% complete. Still have some touch up work to do but that will happen after it’s mounted to the stock with barrels in place:


And here is the original:


So how long did it take to make this thing? Right now there is roughly 32 hours in it. Why so much time? This is a precision fit component with the majority of work done by hand with needle files and sand paper. It has to be precision fit otherwise there will be problems later on. The face must fit the barrels and breech plug hooks with near zero tolerance. A poor fit can lead to a broken stock and/or barrels that come loose in the stock within a very short time of use. It’s well worth the time and effort to make doublety dam sure none of this happens.

Up next? Locks!

Hank

[bama]

Looking good so far Hank. Man you really got that tang engraved quickly

[Hank01]

Looking good so far Hank. Man you really got that tang engraved quickly

Thanks bama. The Gravely 2000 power graver is an amazing machine. Set it to automatic, turn it on and watch it go. Two minutes and it's done!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Hank