Author Topic: Antique LongRifle "WGM" (Read 12626 times)

TCHunts · « **on:** November 12, 2009, 08:05:09 PM »

I'm including a link to some photos of a rifle I've had for a long time, which I would like to know about.

The rifle is signed "W G M" in script on the top of the 45" barrel. It is full stocked in CM and is converted from flint. Dillin lists "WGM" as an unknown. The rifle looks like it came out of the upper Susquehanna area and was perhaps made by Wm Miller. I'd like to know if it is a Miller. I'd also like to know what Wm Miller's relationship was to Simon Miller, and when and where he worked.

Pictures may be found at

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8AZOGLNq2as2NM

or at http://tinyurl.com/yjvkwmn

Thanks,

Tom

Spotz · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2009, 04:36:33 AM »

This is definitely an Upper Susquehanna Rifle. Before I could make a more definitive identification, I would need to see multiple angles of the signature. Most of the time, an Upper Susquehanna rifle is signed opposite of the view that you show (from the sideplate view)--the result is the same, I think in that the signature is "WGM." I have seen "WGB," in the Upper Susquehanna region, as well. I can't tell from the pcitures, however. I do note that the second "M" in the view that you have looks like a "M" from Samuel Morrison, not Miller. Like I said, I need additional views, but you may have a Morrison. William Miller is unknown to me, but never say never, as Simon or Samuel Miller was at work in the Upper Susquehanna, not Hamburg, in later years. If you post additional photos, I would be more than willing to assist in solving your mystery.

Jeff Spotts

TCHunts · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2009, 05:37:04 PM »

Hi Jeff --

Thanks for your comments and your offer of further help.

I've added three more pictures to the file; they all show the signature. If you hold the rifle with the lock facing you, the signature is upside down.

I hope one or more of these is clear enough to be helpful; I look forward to hearing more from you.

Thanks,
Tom

TCHunts · « **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2009, 05:42:20 PM »

Oops -- sorry! New link:

share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8AZOGLNq2as2Nd

or http://tinyurl.com/ykxwth9

Thanks,
Tom

Loudy · « **Reply #4 on:** November 15, 2009, 04:51:29 AM »

Tom,

Very nice rifle. Thank you for sharing the photos. I have a William G. Miller in my listing of Upper Susquehanna rifle makers. My records indicate that he lived and worked in Danville, Montour County, PA. He was the son of gunsmith George Miller. He learned the trade from his father and inherited his father's shop. W.G.M. was born abt. 1809 in Lancaster, Co., PA and died in 1882 in Danville. Perhaps this is the maker of your rifle? Again, thanks for sharing the photos.

Mark Loudenslager

Don Getz · « **Reply #5 on:** November 15, 2009, 05:26:26 AM »

Jeff......when you mentioned that "S. Miller", it reminded me, they have one on display in that Berks County exhibit. I don't
know if you have seen the exhibit, but when you do, look at that rifle. I would like to have someone convince me that it
wasn't made in Union County, probably learned some stuff from Samuel Baum. A nice gun but "Upper Susquehanna"
all the way............Don

Spotz · « **Reply #6 on:** November 15, 2009, 06:04:10 AM »

Mark--

Do you have the name of William Miller's father? Was it S. Miller? As Don indicated, there are S. Miller's that are clearly Upper Susquehanna rifles. If S. Miller stayed in southeastern Pennsylvania his entire life then we need to rethink where Baum may have apprenticed or worked earlier in life. I don't think S. Miller from Hamburg was born as early as Baum (1769), and as a result, I tend to think S. Miller was in Union County at one point--1820-1840.

Jeff

Loudy · « **Reply #7 on:** November 15, 2009, 06:31:41 AM »

Jeff,

William G. Miller gunsmith from Danville, Montour Co. was the son of gunsmith George Miller. George Miller came to Danville from Lancaster County. The name of George's father is unknown. William G. Miller is listed in the census records for Danville as a gunsmith in 1850, 1860 and 1880. I haven't been able to locate the 1870 record. George Miller was born in 1777 in Lancaster Co. and died in 1842 in Danville.

Here's a link to some additional biographical reference information for these gunsmiths...

http://files.usgwarchives.org/pa/montour/bios/miller-ellias-s1833.txt

Mark

jwh1947 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:34:45 AM »

I in no way mean this with a "wise guy" attitude, but rather as an admitted ignoramus when it comes to upper Susquehanna, somewhat of perhaps my blatant omission as I'm a middle Susquehanna guy myself. Help me learn a bit here, if you don't mind taking the time. What do you men with an understanding of upper Susquehanna architecture see in the full picture that gives you that definite feeling of that region's guns? If you can point out some features that give you a convincing notion, what stands out as regional, from your experience? Regarding architecture, I sometimes think I am attributing some of these guns to Dauphin and north Berks, though not this particular item. Appreciate any further details that could help us identify your area's guns. Thanks, Wayne

Don Getz · « **Reply #9 on:** November 15, 2009, 06:25:10 PM »

Wayne......I'm sitting here looking at the picture of the "Simon Miller" gun in the Berks county display. Let me point out
some features that are common on Union/Snyder county guns, and that are not normally found on Berks county guns.
The side plate, we usually refer to them as "horns" that wrap up around the lock bolt...they are not as pronounced on
this gun as most are, but is a common Baum sideplate. The trigger guard....Samuel Baum all the way. The patchbox,
common from guns of the Union/Snyder area, as is the carving behind the cheekpiece. I will admit, the general architecture is very similar to a Berks county gun, but it has those subtle little changes that to us that like these local guns
find it rather easy to identify them. I have a feeling that the early gunbuilders from this area must have come from Berks
county, and will admit that they do have a lot of similarities. I sincerely hope that when Pat Hornberger reads this he will
not think that I am running down the exhibit...definately not the case. I found it to be an outstanding exhibt and was
really well done, outstanding. I am merely pointing out that I have seen many Miller guns pictured and most are attributed to Berks county, while to me, they look more like they were made in Union County............Don

Hurricane ( of Virginia) · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2009, 09:24:56 PM »

I hate to be the one who adds additional challenge to this discussion as I know little. I have a gun with the identical barrel signature ( "WGM") and stylistic engraving around it on the barrel that looks nothing like an Upper Susquehanna gun as I know it; said to have the stock architecture of Ohio. I will offer it to the Museum soon. Any of you who wish a preview, please email me. Jeff has the pictures and can comment.
Hurricane

Loudy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:45:11 AM »

I once heard someone describe a Upper Susquehanna longrifle as a "Berks County gun on a diet". To me these "up the river" guns do have a slinderized look and feel about them relative to earlier Berks County guns. Indeed, many of the "Old Union County" gunsmiths had roots in Berks County. For example, I believe the Dreisbach, Wetzel, Angstadt, and Derr gunsmith clans all had ties to Berks County.

Mark

jwh1947 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:38:59 PM »

Thanks Don, and Mark, that's perhaps where I get all befuddled. I go with that Berks on a diet theme, and maybe the later Berks guns are more consistent with their up river counterparts than are the older Berks examples. In short, I like all of these guns. Also, occasionally one of these specimens with superior work still pops up, as some of our friends can recently attest.

Incidentally, as some of our colleagues have recently pointed out, with a fast horse, and with both the rider and horse being in good health, it's not much of a jaunt from Snyder County to Berks or Harrisburg. We've already established that some guys rode further than that to sustain an amorous affair. Came close to marrying a gal from Pottsville myself, but I had a BSA 650 Lightning and two lanes of clean mountain road cutting through the lower coal region to make my trips more convenient. Yes, I would have ridden a horse if that's all I had.

Here's a theory--the gunsmith with the most apprentices, hence the most influential regional teacher, was the one with the prettiest daughter. Leads to a serious possibility-- another Ph.D. thesis topic for a cultural anthropologist or American Studies student. Trace the marriages of known gunsmiths' offspring...the intermarriages between known gunsmithing families...then use that as a backdrop to interpret architectural similarities. I can name quite a few blended families myself, which would include the names of a few grand masters. Only logical. JWH

Spotz · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:02:29 AM »

Wayne--

I am taking the aforementioned approach in my study of Upper Susquehanna guns. I took my list, which did not include this Miller, who is likely the maker of the subject rifle (thanks, Mark), and looking at the familial connections. I would go as far as to say that Baum is the "Godfather" of the Upper Susquehanna rifle, but there are some anomolies that I am not comfortable with in making that bold assertion (the Albrights in Centre County, Dreisbach and some of the people who show no sign of working with Baum). I am still digging, but I have about 100 pages written. Give me a few winters and boredom.

I will add a few details to Don's list of features. The football or oval sideplate appears circa 1825. The two piece rear entry pipe is common, but not always reliable. The Morrison sidelocks were either made by Morrison or a local blacksmith in Morrison's neck of the woods. Wriggle engraving is common on Union and Snyder guns. The buckhorn sideplate is an earlier Baum and Dreisbach feature. Unsigned guns are almost as common as signed rifles (were Baum's minions earning side money?). Many makers were also farmers or other tradesmen. Raised carving is rare, but extant examples survive.

Spotz · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:13:29 AM »

I will keep going . . .

Most carving is incised, with a number of common patterns consistent with Baum's ledger. Inlays are pretty consistent with little engraving. The hook breach and easily removable barrels are common (we won't start this debate again as I haven't removed one recently). Original Baum finishes are a red violin finish (no one else seems to consistently use it). The wear plate is a very common feature with two lines fore and aft, as well more decorate examples, including piercing (this is fairly consistent).

Fred--

Your "WGM" rifle has me stumped. Does it have a heavy barrel? One thing that I noticed over the years is that Upper Susquehanna target rifles sometime lose the roman nose shape (presumably for strength). I thought this was a product of restocking, but I feel pretty confident that many were built with a straighter stock originally. Because the WGM rifle you have is a flinter, I am inclined to think that it was not a recycled barrel. It doesn't fit in the Upper Susquehanna. In looking at the subject rifle, again, I see nothing Morrison about it and I am leaning toward the Miller attribution. The morrison script signature has a much more condensed and narrow "M." There is nothing to confuse with Morrison about the subject gun, but I must admit that your WGM rifles has me stumped at present.

jwh1947 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:57:03 AM »

This is all useful.

Loudy · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:35:49 AM »

Gunsmith... William G. Miller

The 1850 census for Danville Borough, Montour County, PA lists an 18 year old gunsmith named James Guyer residing in the home of gunsmith William G. Miller age 39. The 1860 census lists James Guyer "gunsmith" living in Penn Twp., Lycoming County, PA. Other references indicate that "Jimmy" Guyer worked as a gunsmith and "tobacco merchant" in Muncy, Lycoming County for many years. James Guyer had a son named Clinton Guyer b. 1860 that became an "inventor." Clinton submitted a patent applications for a breech-loading rifle design. It would have been interesting if James Guyer married one of W.G. Miller's daughter. However, my records indicate that he married Miss Catherine Yeagel August 12, 1858 in Muncy. It's probably safe to assume that James Guyer learned the gunsmith trade frow W. G. Miller. It would be interesting to compare a rifle attibuted to James Guyer to the W.G.M. rifle pictured here.

Mark

Spotz · « **Reply #17 on:** November 18, 2009, 04:48:55 AM »

Interesting stuff. James Guyer signed his rifles "J.P. Guyer, Muncy, Pa" and for the most part, they don't look anything like this "WGM" rifle.

Hurricane ( of Virginia) · « **Reply #18 on:** November 18, 2009, 03:54:39 PM »

Stay tuned. The "WGM" gun I own has been submitted to the Museum and will likely appear in the Museum soon.

Hurricane ( of Virginia) · « **Reply #19 on:** November 23, 2009, 05:06:31 AM »

By an extraordinary coincidence there is a swivel with a lock stamped
"W. G. Miller" on a gun in the discussion section of Antiqueguns.com. The patchbox and engraving are "identical" to that on the "WGM" that will be displayed in the Museum tomorrow.
Hurricane

Loudy · « **Reply #20 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:24:40 AM »

Hurricane,

Thank you for posting the photos of your "W.G.M." rifle, and the "W.G.Miller" swivel-breech. It's clear that Mr. Miller knew his way around a gunsmith's bench. He was indeed talented with wood & metal. Just curious, does your rifle have some wiggle-engraving on the trigger guard base at the front & back of bow? In the photos it looks like it may. If so, this is a feature I've seen on other Upper Susquehanna rifles. The incise carved decorative moulding line that runs up either side of the trigger guard and then scallops inward and up around the front of the lock & sideplate is also a feature that seems to be relatively common on longrifles from that region.

Mark

Hurricane ( of Virginia) · « **Reply #21 on:** November 25, 2009, 06:14:22 PM »

The trigger guard has no engraving on my gun.
Hurricane

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Author Topic: Antique LongRifle "WGM" (Read 12626 times)

TCHunts

TCHunts

TCHunts

jwh1947

jwh1947

jwh1947