Patch box catch

[John Cotterall]

I am building a rifle in the Reading/Allemaengel school. The catch/release tab is supposed to go the butt plate similar to a sliding wooden patch box. The 2 rifle building books I have concentrated more on releases that are located on the toe plate or the butt plate extension. I already riveted a latch to the patch box lid about 3/4” forward of the butt plate. Do I drill a hole through the butt plate for the catch? Do I inlet the catch just under the lid? In Dixon’s book he illustrates a L-shaped spring catch but doesn’t show where it passes through the butt plate. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks 😊










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[Joe Stein]

Go to the Antique section on the forum and scroll down to the post on JP Beck to see how JP Beck did it.

[coopersdad]

Here's how I did one on a Bonewitz (Berks County) rifle.

You cut a hole in the buttplate.  When I looked at the latch release in the original, I couldn't figure out what the small groove cut all around it was for.  Found out it's to rotate the latch after you insert it, otherwise the hole would be bigger than the release button. 

The only difference from the original I copied it from, is I attached it with two screws, it appears the original used nails. 

Hope this helps!

[Dave B]

These are two from the area your asking about. The top is from Alemengnal and the other a Bonawitz Berks/Lebenon the springs are nailed in like Coopersdad was talking about. The first is a later gun than yours but you can see the advantage on not having to make extra modifications to feed the whole spring through the butt plate. The tip of the spring is just poked through the slot from the inside. The long spring end is a sharpened chisel point and driven in to the end of the patch box like a nail.





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[Eric Kettenburg]

The photos should be fairly self explanatory.  One thing I'd like to mention is that before you go and do this, you need to remove A LOT of material off the back side of that buttplate.  Look at the photos of the original pieces and how thin the visible edge along the side of the stock is.  Leaving a large amount of material here not only looks clunky but it just never looks right.  IMHO.

And, don't just taper it down abruptly and leave the remainder of the buttplate cross section as thick as it is.  Get a very sharp and coarse half round file, preferably a really big one (14-16") and go to town on that thick casting.  On most better original pieces the thickness in the cross section @ the center was typically no more than 1/8" if that (that's on the high side) and should taper out to @ 1/16" or less at the edges.

[John Cotterall]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I recognize your name is a well known builder. I will keep filing away at the butt plate’ rear face. Does the spring need to be twisted to go from horizontal where it’s fastened to the wood? It looks like the spring catch is vertical going through the butt plate. Thank you for your patience with this rookie 🙃

[Eric Kettenburg]

If you look closely at both photos of antiques, you can see that one spring is nailed in (which I always find is a pain in the donkey) and one is driven in like a spear.  In both instances, the spring is "L" shaped or close to L shaped viewed from the top, but if you turned it sideways as if you were looking up through the toe of the butt toward the comb, it would look straight as you would not see the curve.  The trick with these is filing the hole in the buttplate small enough to ensure it is pretty much entirely covered by the head of the release, but also has enough space to allow the spring to move and also to allow it to be 'fished in' to be installed.  The slot under the buttplate will typically be larger to allow leeway for it to be jiggled and fished into place once the buttplate is installed.  It's also clear that these guys weren't that concerned about being able to easily remove the buttplate, especially with the nailed on versions.  I just make sure that before I install the buttplate for the final assembly, I have the wood under there sealed very well.  Frankly, though, I doubt most builders 200+ years ago did this as there is almost no evidence of it.  I think Hershel House used to smear axle grease all over the butt end before installing the buttplate.  I'm not a fan of that myself but there are other materials that can be used which likely are less detrimental to the wood itself.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Signed John Moll, probably late 1780s or possibly 1790s if John II.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd recommend an angle grinder with 40 grit paper on it for that buttplate.

[Eric Kettenburg]

That works too, but it doesn't work off all the beer calories.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have seen several Lehigh rifles that had a flat spring release much like the Beck style, but rather than having a forged head on the outside of the buttplate, the spring simply poked through a rectangular hole and had a serration in it to catch your finger nail.  Very simple and slick.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, although these were primarily later.  Which may be the period in which the OP is working. 

Most of those 'forged' heads were actually riveted and brazed on.  At least most that I've seen anyway.

[coopersdad]

John, if it helps I attached a couple photos of my latch spring that show the shape Mr. Kettenburg talked about.  As he said, having the buttplate hole small enough it doesn't show is the trick.

Since the spring moves vertically in relation to the gun, the hole is a vertical rectangle.  The spring is inserted through the hole with the flat attachment point of the spring horizontal.  It needs to be rotated 90 degrees so it can be attached to the patchbox wall.  That's why that "waist" is filed in at where the flat part stops.  You fish it in, then when that waist reaches the hole, it gives clearance to rotate it 90 degrees and then you can insert it the rest of the way. 

Nailing it on would require incredible faith in one's ability to know it would work the first time.  I must have had it in and out at least a half dozen times tweaking things, so the screws were the only way I could do it.

I saw your PM as I was writing this - I didn't use spring steel, just a nail.  For the small amount of bend it seems to work fine.  I attached a couple photos of some of that process.  I forged the flat part out using a propane torch and the anvil on my vise.

For a first build it's looking great!  You'll find this place is invaluable, the folks here are so incredibly helpful! 

[Eric Kettenburg]

Agreed there is no need to use spring steel for these.  You can hammer on them enough to work harden pretty much any low carbon iron or steel and make them springy.  They don't move very far at all.  I've cold hammer forged pretty much every one of these I've ever made out of whatever scrap low carbon was at hand.

I've never made one like the one shown above - mine are all fairly uniform in height/width and taper down toward the spear point as in the Moll example I posted.  This allows me to install and tweak, but still remove, until I'm ready to do the final install.  At that point, I clamp the spear end in a vice with one edge protruding upward (out of the jaws) and with a small flat graver or small sharp cold chisel, I cut a few subtle 'barbs' so that when I drive it in for the last time it will hold well.

[bama]

Unless I am seeing your picture incorrectly, it appears that you have a friction type patch box lid that requires the use of camming action to keep the box lid open or closed. If that is the case, you do not need to use a door catch and release spring. Can you provide better pictures of the area at the patch box lid hinge that shows your connection there better?

[TommyG]

John, if you do decide to go the route that Eric outlined, here is a great tutorial by Tom Curran on fabricating and fitting that type of release

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21739.0

[John Cotterall]

Here are the pictures of the finished patch box release. The spring to push the lid open is a piece of a leaf rake time😉

[Bob Gerard]

This thread is very informative. Thanks for everyone’ input!

[hanshi]

I agree, lots of good advice in this thread.  My dilemma is that the rifle is finished and the idea of a release latch of some sort came as an afterthought.  Whatever I decide to do I think it may be something like what Taylor described.  As long as it's within my abilities I will consider other suggestions.

[rich pierce]

Thoughts on this moving to tutorials, with updated title something like “Through buttplate patchbox catch”?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's one I did on a JP Beck rifle.  The head is forged cold in a machinist's vise,then filed to match the contour of the butt plate.   I elected to screw the spring into the cavity so it could be removed easily for tuning.  Others I've made were driven into the end grain of the inside of the cavity like Eric describes, and they worked out just as well.