Used rifles

[Eric Kettenburg]

It only becomes divisive because some believe that their preferences are "right" and anyone else is "wrong" and subsequently try to render it in some way via moral terms.  I find that silly.

[45-110]

Yes I suppose some one needs to tell Hershel that his aged metal look which I like is not Kosher anymore!

[Daryl]

Lovely gun, SDH. The accouterments SHINE as well.

[SDH]

Thanks Daryl...
Hershel is in his own league and each of his guns is an original~~

[AZshot]

I missed winning a Jud Brennan in the past few months.  They are aged, and go for big bucks. Here is no 87, mentioned above:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__CONTEMPORARY_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_BY_J__BRENNAN__NO_-LOT503647.aspx

[AZshot]

Amount of wear depends on the region and purpose of the rifle. Perhaps: Landed gentry rifles from coastal plantations didn't get taken down from the wall very often.  And they were carefully passed down through generations of careful owners.  These have flashy carving on wood and brass, and impressed each new owner enough to baby them. They didn't sit in a woods camp all winter in the rain.  Didn't fall over from leaning against a tree. You won't see many dents or gouges or roughed up metal because they spent their life indoors.  Perhaps a rifle captured at the battle of Kings Mountain was kept carefully from that week on, brought out to show, wiped down and put away...for 240 years. Even the NC Piedmont was pretty civilized with towns and streets and many fine homes kept their Moravian rifles safe.

But Southern Mountain rifles I see are different, with lots of wear from lots of use in outdoor conditions.  Most of these workingman's rifles were carried for 20 years by the original owner, then the next, likely.  Same with long rifles that went out West (many carried by these Appalachian mountain men). They become quite worn. This one is almost a relic:

This one was kept a little better:


Here is one that was was found in Bearden, Arkansas....100 years ago.  And kept in it's present condition until I bought it last year from the 80 year old son of the original owner who found it in 1924.  Tennessee to Arkansas is a long way to carry a rifle, living outdoors while looking for a new place to settle. It puts wear on them that doesn't happen if the gun is kept in a dry Northern home and taken out on weekends to hunt.

[Mike Brooks]

Carolina guns AKA type G guns had a usable life span of two years in indian hands.

[Jim Kibler]

That rifle found in Arkansas sure is a dandy.  Great lines for sure.

Jim

[rich pierce]

Anyone who has done restoration work has seen some horrors.

[ScottNE]

I missed winning a Jud Brennan in the past few months.  They are aged, and go for big bucks. Here is no 87, mentioned above:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__CONTEMPORARY_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_BY_J__BRENNAN__NO_-LOT503647.aspx

Man, if that one ever comes up again, I'd sell every gun I have to cover it...Probably gone into thr vault of a lucky collector, never to be seen again.

I had a sense that several Brennan rifles had come up during that time period, a couple for comparatively modest prices. Reviewing, 2 other Brennan rifles sold that same month between Morphy's and RIA, but neither for a modest price!

A year before, though, in 2020, a Brennan sold for bargain price, comparatively speaking.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/79/3199/judson-brennan-flintlock-american-long-rifle

I'm by no means a collector, but some makers have magic in their fingertips or something that just makes their work special. Jud Brennan has that in spades.

[Stoner creek]

I missed winning a Jud Brennan in the past few months.  They are aged, and go for big bucks. Here is no 87, mentioned above:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__CONTEMPORARY_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_BY_J__BRENNAN__NO_-LOT503647.aspx

Man, if that one ever comes up again, I'd sell every gun I have to cover it...Probably gone into thr vault of a lucky collector, never to be seen again.

I had a sense that several Brennan rifles had come up during that time period, a couple for comparatively modest prices. Reviewing, 2 other Brennan rifles sold that same month between Morphy's and RIA, but neither for a modest price!

A year before, though, in 2020, a Brennan sold for bargain price, comparatively speaking.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/79/3199/judson-brennan-flintlock-american-long-rifle

I'm by no means a collector, but some makers have magic in their fingertips or something that just makes their work special. Jud Brennan has that in spades.

 I own that one. I’d sell it for a modest profit if you’re interested. Pm me if you have a question.

[ScottNE]

I missed winning a Jud Brennan in the past few months.  They are aged, and go for big bucks. Here is no 87, mentioned above:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__CONTEMPORARY_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_BY_J__BRENNAN__NO_-LOT503647.aspx

Man, if that one ever comes up again, I'd sell every gun I have to cover it...Probably gone into thr vault of a lucky collector, never to be seen again.

I had a sense that several Brennan rifles had come up during that time period, a couple for comparatively modest prices. Reviewing, 2 other Brennan rifles sold that same month between Morphy's and RIA, but neither for a modest price!

A year before, though, in 2020, a Brennan sold for bargain price, comparatively speaking.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/79/3199/judson-brennan-flintlock-american-long-rifle

I'm by no means a collector, but some makers have magic in their fingertips or something that just makes their work special. Jud Brennan has that in spades.

 I own that one. I’d sell it for a modest profit if you’re interested. Pm me if you have a question.

Hello sir! His 87th rifle or the one that went through RIA? If the first I'm very interested -- if the latter, I am still sorely tempted but will have to hold off, I'm hoping to acquire one of his "red phase" rifles completed in the state of Alaska as my penultimate.

[Stoner creek]

No problem. This piece was made in 1980. No serial number. He started numbering in 1985 after the move to Alaska.

[ScottNE]

No problem. This piece was made in 1980. No serial number. He started numbering in 1985 after the move to Alaska.

Fair enough. Thank you again for the offer.

[rich pierce]

Maybe we should have a “What I like” thread and a “What I hate” thread. Or “do it my way or you’re not thinking right” thread. JUST KIDDING.

I’m not sure what any of this sort of discussion adds. I see nothing I or anyone else could learn from these pontifications., except something about personalities.

[oldtravler61]

   Rich I have an old Master lock if you need it... Mike

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I have a Chambers York County that I had help building around 2010 that I’ve used an awful lot. I used it primitive hunting and done a lot of rendezvouses with it. It has been shot much more than an original. Surely a few thousand times. I used the same flint for a couple of years, putting a twig behind it to move it forward just to see how long it would last. I’ve used it in the rain and snow. Slept with it. Dropped it a few times. For years I took it out 4-5 times a week to shoot squirrels. I looks worse than some of my originals. I’ve even polished the brass a few time out of boredom. Wished I hadn’t…..

[alacran]

It really doesn't take a long time to age a gun if you actually use it hunting in all weather conditions. A week of hunting in a rainy environment and camping in such conditions will put many years on a gun.

[Dphariss]

Speaking of Don King Hawken rifles I had the opportunity to buy one that was heavily used by the famous Blue Jacket Sanders. Blue Jacket hunted and rendezvoused with that gun for decades and the use showed. He worked at Green River Rifle Works was an amazing builder and yet he let that Hawken age gracefully.

I regret not buying it when I had the chance...

Blue Jacket was a very capable “antiquer”. I knew Blue Jacket and I knew Don King very well. A friend of mine owned Blue’s DK Hawken for a time and killed deer and elk with it. He actually pointed me to your post. But he is not a member so I thought I would pass this on in his stead.

Why does his Don Kong Hawken look like it does?

Because after he got it from Don as a NEW RIFLE. He took it into the bathtub watered it down and scrubbed it with steel wool to make it look old. When Don saw it next he asked what the h#ll was done to it and Blue told him. It REALLY POed Don (for years) and he told Blue Jacket he would never make him another rifle. So NOW you know why it looks like it does and it has nothing to do with the actual use. Its steel wool and a bathtub.

I would also point out that some of Blue Jacket’s “activities” are one reason I consider antiquing fakery. The reader may take this anyway they like. So knowing what I know there is nothing about the “wear” on Blues DK Hawken that I would consider “real”.

I have seen quite a number of Don’s rifles and have had four over the years. I have never seen one that looks like Blue Jackets and I KNOW many saw a lot of use and not just at some re-enactment. AND I know Blue used to hunt  Elk with a 375 H&H. He told me so himself.

[Dphariss]

Carolina guns AKA type G guns had a usable life span of two years in indian hands.

One must remember two things that pertain to the various trade guns.
1. They were the cheapest thing they could foist off on the native. Who were somewhat particular. But not THAT particular.
2. They were throwaways. Better to get a new one than have to pay to have one repaired.
And of course this was what the traders wanted.
If the gun the native had got too used looking he would go kill some deer have the hides dressed or 1/2 dressed and trade for a new one. Or maybe his brother or cousin got a new one and he needed to upgrade. Or it just broke. They were not well trained in firearms maintenance afterall.

If we read “British Flintlock Military Rifles” we will find that neither the Military or the traders wanted the natives to have good quality guns and especially rifles.
 It is interesting, according to Hamilton in “Colonial Frontier Guns”  That while its well known the “Indians” used rifles that there is little evidence of rifles in the various digs at village sites while there is myriad of trade gun parts.  If you have a copy of “Firearms of the American West 1803-1865” and you read the first rifle Chapter, #4, there is an interesting story of a rifle subsequently called “Old Blackfoot”. Even a broken rifle was a valuable item. And would be restored to service or traded to someone who would put it back into service. The barrel if nothing else.

[Dphariss]

It only becomes divisive because some believe that their preferences are "right" and anyone else is "wrong" and subsequently try to render it in some way via moral terms.  I find that silly.

Silly? Really?
When people sell stuff as original when its not its a MORAL issue. Unless fraud treachery and deceit are moral. They are not in my world.  I don’t care what people do to their firearms and gear in their make believe world, unless its done to defraud. If you don’t understand this and know how long its been going on you need to think a little more. I knew of this by the time I was 18 years old and shooting a Friendship. I’m 73 now. Its been going on since long before I was born. I still laugh to myself when someone on some re-enactor site brags about finding an antique corn cooker or whatever at some antique store. Because its a very good chance it was faked in the 1960s. I know of someone who bought back one of his own antiqued items as an original, at a high price, and then sent it back on refusal when he recognized it. Not gonna name names. Powder horns? I would no more pay for an “original” powder horn than I would make an offer on the Brooklyn Bridge too many fakes out there. Some very old in their own right.
And I KNOW that antiquing can lead people into fraud. There is money in it. But of course mention  of such things seems to be taboo in some circles and then I have to wonder… Why?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes it's silly.  It only becomes a moral issue with an intent toward fraud.  Nobody here antiquing rifles to any extent is posting photos or selling to buyers under false pretenses and you know it.  Those who may be fraudulent are the people you've never heard of and sure as he ll aren't posting their work here. 

Nothing is stopping someone from taking one of your rifles or my rifles after either of us croaks and working it over to make it a fake.  So now we have to assume responsibility for every piece and every owner until the end of time so as to meet your personal definition of morals?  Give me a freaking break.  False antiquing has been going on forever; revisit the Shroud of Turin.  If you want to be absolutely moral, I guess the only thing you can do is build an erector set black rifle because if you are building an "old style" flint or percussion gun someone 200 years from now might mistake it for a true antique and your long-since-deceased self might be responsible.  Or judged, by excessively judgmental people.

What someone does with my rifle, or my car, or my house, or my bag of trash, or my land, or my kitchen knives, or my pencils after I have sold or passed my belongings on is not my business or my responsibility.  If they choose to do ill, I will wish that they hadn't done so, but it sure as puck isn't on me for someone else's bad actions.

BTW your story about Don King and Blue Jacket is interesting - I truly mean that - but who cares what Don King thought after he sold the rifle?  He sold it, he was paid, it was the Blue Jacket dude's rifle to do what he wanted with it.  If he wanted to use it as a campfire prod as one of mine was used, well so be it.  It's his property, his to do as he wishes.  It's not my job or anyone's job to dictate how someone else uses something he owns as he sees fit.  To do otherwise is just being a nosy richard.

It's clear you and I see things quite differently.  I'm not going to argue over this any longer because I have aged-up, antiqued rifles to finish before I descend into the realm of fire and brimstone to forever regret my "immoral" behavior. 

[B.Barker]

I was going to stay out of this one but... Folks today don't use guns like they did 200 plus years ago. If we did many of our rifles wouldn't make it very long. No one is chasing natives or being chased by them. Nor are they living in the wilderness for months on end with next to no cover. When I was younger and the heat didn't effect me like it does now and my joints were much more limber leather belt would last me three years tops. From rain, snow and sweat they would stretch and crack and tear beyond repair. No I didn't have very expensive leather and I didn't take great care of them either. I'm just pointing out that things wear out quicker the harder they are used. Now the same belt with the same care will last six years or longer. I have a knife I made in 2008 or 09. I have carried it every day since I made it. I have used it in ways that it should not be used and cut things that should not be cut with a knife. It would probably be even more worn if I was younger when it was made. Not sure how many times it has been sharpened but I usually wait to long in between. I believe that my knife here shows how a rifle would look if it were used everyday for the same time. The photo with the two knives is from the first or second year my knife was made the other is from 2021 or 22.

[bluenoser]

Thanks Eric!
I have been biting my tongue on this one.
Thanks for saying what I have been thinking.

[Dphariss]

Yes it's silly.  It only becomes a moral issue with an intent toward fraud.  Nobody here antiquing rifles to any extent is posting photos or selling to buyers under false pretenses and you know it.  Those who may be fraudulent are the people you've never heard of and sure as he ll aren't posting their work here. 

Nothing is stopping someone from taking one of your rifles or my rifles after either of us croaks and working it over to make it a fake.  So now we have to assume responsibility for every piece and every owner until the end of time so as to meet your personal definition of morals?  Give me a freaking break.  False antiquing has been going on forever; revisit the Shroud of Turin.  If you want to be absolutely moral, I guess the only thing you can do is build an erector set black rifle because if you are building an "old style" flint or percussion gun someone 200 years from now might mistake it for a true antique and your long-since-deceased self might be responsible.  Or judged, by excessively judgmental people.

What someone does with my rifle, or my car, or my house, or my bag of trash, or my land, or my kitchen knives, or my pencils after I have sold or passed my belongings on is not my business or my responsibility.  If they chose to do ill, I will wish that they hadn't done so, but it sure as puck isn't on me for someone else's bad actions.

BTW your story about Don King and Blue Jacket is interesting - I truly mean that - but who $@&&!@ what Don King thought after he sold the rifle?  He sold it, he was paid, it was the Blue Jacket dude's rifle to do what he wanted with it.  If he wanted to use it as a campfire prod as one of mine was used, well so be it.  It's his property, his to do as he wishes.  It's not my job or anyone's job to dictate how someone else uses something he owns as he sees fit.  To do otherwise is just being a nosy richard.

It's clear you and I see things quite differently.  I'm not going to argue over this any longer because I have aged-up, antiqued rifles to finish before I descend into the realm of fire and brimstone to forever regret my "immoral" behavior.

I remember a rifle on gun broker with a list of CYA in the descriprion and the WEAR of the stock told me it was a fake. Do YOU rememher it?