Author Topic: Used rifles  (Read 6879 times)

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9751
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Used rifles
« on: February 04, 2023, 07:53:35 AM »

Photos are of my Don King Hawken that has been shot quite a bit, killed deer and one elk at least. Has irritated some other shooters at rendezvous. Won other matches as well. I have had it for about 40 years. It has a few dings, its been in the snow and such. Now if it had a SURFACE wood finish like the Bridger Hawken the finish would look a lot worse. (I think the Bridger rifle was carried in a "rifle loop" at the pommel by the looks of the wear at the front of the lock panels and the forend. )But Don used something from Sherwin-Williams (IIRC) called Beauty Loc (or lock) its been some years since Don closed his shop. Its IN the wood. Forget the name of the stain. It was by Wampler (?) Chemical co. I stil have some in a bottle, unlabeled of course. He would stain really dark then wash it back. Water would make one color and alcohol another. I have never used it. Some rifles were brown and some more tan like this. Even the TG has most of the heat blue still on it. Buttplate is a little worn at the heal. Toe plate has some spots. The the photos show white due to the lighting in some areas. I have even wrapped a drag rope around it to drag a deer at least once.
A friend owns Don's personal rifle that he shot for years hunting squirrels I forget how many but he said it was in the hundreds. Shot it in matches at home and at Friendship. He built it in 1963. It does not look aged as people do it now. And when Don finally sold it it passed through a few more owners.
this is the Hawken I traded into, virtually unused, in the early 1980s. I did change the frizzen years later at Don's recommendation and at one time I reheat blued the entry but I don't recall why. it was some years back. I get the idea that the "aged rifles" I see are aged to what the buyers or makers EXPECT not what a used rifle looks like. If we look at some of the rifles captured on the battlefiedl during the revolution. The Dickert in "Moravian Gunmaking..." the first one. We see a used rifle with an original cover. And yest full length covers were used. The British trade rifles imported during the revolution came with a cover as well as a mould and wiper etc. So they WERE used. The Dickert is used. Its been shortened at the muzzle and the cover fits that length. Why this was done we do not know could have been damaged in battle (the rifle went to England apparently during it service life probably as a capture. It does not really look like a "aged" rifle either. And we do not know if if was shortened because something also killed the owner or if he sabotaged it to keep the enemy from using it. But given its ages its really nice. And it obviously saw some use and may have been 5 o 20 years old when taken to Britain.
So I don't "age" rifles. The only ones I ever added wear too were the Quigley rifles when I stocked them at Shiloh. Having used Sharps as well I knew what they would look like. Hollywood did not think it was enough so they added some more.





















He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Old Time Hunter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2023, 03:01:28 PM »
That is a nice rifle ! However, comparing the finish on , a rifle that was built 40 -50 years ago to , one that came through the Cumberland gap , proves nothing. The rifle you picture has "lived' most of it`s existence in a "climate controlled environment " .  Why is it SO hard for you to grasp the idea that, other people might like something that you don`t!          If the administrators allowed people to "bash"  Kibler kits , the way they do "gun aging" then , there would be an uproar!    EVERY time anyone even mentions ANY form of aging technique , the "OPINION MAFIA"  goes right to work bashing "fakery"  and pretty much shutting down the conversation. So many people advise someone with an old rifle to find a "competent restorer" . Does anyone actually believe that a competent restorer , never practiced "aging" !     Give it a break and, let people share information!

Online Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2023, 04:05:48 PM »
There's a big difference between a rifle or other arm that is meant to display some contemporary use (not to be confused with 'contemporary aging) and a rifle that someone wishes to look like a true 200+ year old piece.  Your examples display what I'd view as contemporary use and very well-cared for.  Not everyone cares for a piece quite that well but most take pretty good care of them and they generally look similar to yours, maybe with a little more wear or darkening of the wood (especially if acid stained originally).  If someone wants a rifle to look like a genuine antique, well that's not rocket science.  Just look at original arms and pick one.   Then there is "contemporary aging" which was probably a Herschel innovation and it's been popular since; you know, the bleached or aggressively cold blued metal, selected areas of the stock darkened etc but otherwise still a new looking gun.  That's probably one of the most popular methods of finishing (among builders and customers alike) and has been at least since the late 80s or early 90s.

There's room for all and no approach is 'right.'  The final say is with the guy who's throwing down good $$$, so ultimately his opinion is the only one that matters.

Ford!  Chevy!  Mopar!  It's like being in high school again.  If you don't like something, don't buy it.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2120
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2023, 04:33:53 PM »
I tend to agree with Dan. I also see Ericks point.
If I was building guns to put food on the table, and someone wanted a rifle built like it had been submerged in a pond and made to look like it was 300 years old, I would do it. The customer is always right, even when he is wrong.
One of the reasons I seldom comment on guns that are aged is because I was taught if you have nothing good to say about something, is better not to say anything.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 04:43:14 PM by alacran »
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18922
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2023, 04:42:16 PM »
In my view only, the market for generic flintlock and percussion longrifles is pretty flat. Even signed original of high quality can go for less than it would cost someone to have one built. Recently a bunch of Jacob Metzger rifles were sold at once; probably a bad idea. One or two brought a nice price and some could be had for $2-3k. Who is going to build and age one for that money to fake someone into thinking it’s an original when they could build a rifle and sell as new for the same or more?

The form of rifling of barrels available today is nothing like originals which had wide lands and narrow grooves. Anyone knowledgeable can say “new barrel, aged”.  Same for locks. “That’s a Siler frizzen.”

I’ve never seen a convincing fake (signed with the signature of a 18th century gunsmith) being marketed as an original) that was built “now”.  Have you?  There will be no future market for contemporary guns mistaken for originals in 30 years.

All fakery I’ve seen that was remotely convincing is additions and modifications to originals. A signature added. Patchboxes and carving added. Dates engraved.

Someone please trot out a contemporary built rifle that sold for big money as an original. I bet it’s a Hawken. Show me a newly constructed Beck or Verner or Dickert or whatever that sold for more than a fine contemporary rifle would, under the assumption it was an original. Then show me 10 more.

What I’ve seen presented is a straw man argument. Nothing to it. Let’s see data. On long guns.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 04:48:27 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4314
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2023, 05:05:25 PM »
  How about we JUST answer or help people who are asking for help..?
  A lot of us are getting tired of this...  Almost all of the contemporary guns I see at the shows are aged. If anyone when buying a gun can't tell it's faked now a day's. Maybe you shouldn't be buying and selling...?
  Your finish on YOUR guns is exactly that. YOUR choice... But quit telling the rest of us what we should like or don't like.....
  Oldtravler

Online Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2023, 05:34:29 PM »
The point that inevitably ALWAYS gets missed in this never-ending argumentative discussion is that *not everyone is buying a flintlock to hunt or shoot it!*. Seriously.  Inevitably the comments start flying about 'well people 200 years ago didn;t want a rifle that looked like that.'   I know.  Who G A S.  People 200 years ago aren't paying the bills now.  If someone wants a rifle that looked brand new 200 years ago, then make one.  That don't confront me as long as I get my money next Friday.

There is an active community of buyers who are buying these as ART pieces.  Most of them that I know probably never shoot them.  Now whether you chose to view these as 'art' or not is your prerogative.  The fact remains however that *in my experience* a number of these collectors/buyers like to buy pieces that are anywhere from lightly or 'contemporary' aged to 'fake' style aging.  More often than not, brand spanking new shiny rifles are harder to sell to those buyers than aged rifles. 

Everyone has their own taste and fortunately there are enough gunstockers around to accommodate all.  I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would get a blood pressure spike over someone else's work that he/she has no intention of buying anyway.  It's a fantasy argument in search of additional argument.

I'm going to go down to the local mini mart now from where I never buy subs, and never intend to buy a sub, and go berate them about how lousy I think their sub making artistry is   ::) .
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15075
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2023, 05:48:52 PM »
I "see" both sides too, but then, I shoot my guns enough that they actually age some, however they do not look 200years old. It amazes me some guys can pull that off on a newly made rifle & that takes skill, lots of skill.  I notice a lot of old rifles have wood shrunken away from metal in the mortises. Those look like I do new. "Someone" said once, I should sharpen the screwdrivers I use for inletting. ::)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline martin9

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2023, 06:05:03 PM »
An aged gun just makes sense for me. If I were to order a gun from one of the better/best makers out there I'm gonna shoot it and hunt with it. If I get say..... a big scrape on the cheekpiece while hunting....no big deal on an aged gun as it'll just add to it's charm. Not so on a piece finished as new where the rest of the gun is perfect but now has a big scrape on the cheekpiece.  These things can be expensive. Just from an investment standpoint I'd rather get an aged gun.

Online Dave Marsh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2023, 06:11:41 PM »
That don't confront me as long as I get my money next Friday.  Don't confront me or George T either. 
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
~ Benjamin Franklin

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18922
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2023, 06:16:18 PM »
EK hit it. If you like guns made and maintained in close to as-new appearance,well-maintained; getchasum. If you like guns that look like they were there, getchasum.

I smile a little when folks share their 20-40 year old guns in fine shape and figure that’s the same as 40 years of use in camp, year-round, all sorts of weather (unless in the desert). I wonder how the originals got to look like they do when they are attic finds. Maybe somebody aged them. No other explanation, really. Let’s ignore that Lewis and Clark had to recut the rifling on their Harpers Ferry rifles in the field on a mere 3 year trip. If the insides were that bad………..

Anyone proposing regulations or restrictions surprises me when in this company. Maybe cars should be made so they have a top speed of 80 mph. To make a car that can go faster than that is just asking for lives to be lost. A much more serious problem than aging. On board? (It’s an analogy)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 06:53:34 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline yellowhousejake

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2023, 06:36:08 PM »
I did not read anything in the OP's post that was bashing or could be taken as harmful or accusatory (is that a word?). The OP even makes clear note that his finish is "in" the wood likely resulting is less wear and or damage.

The post just read as a personal observation to me and I found it interesting.

DAve

Offline Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1301
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2023, 06:45:48 PM »
Speaking of Don King Hawken rifles I had the opportunity to buy one that was heavily used by the famous Blue Jacket Sanders. Blue Jacket hunted and rendezvoused with that gun for decades and the use showed. He worked at Green River Rifle Works was an amazing builder and yet he let that Hawken age gracefully.

I regret not buying it when I had the chance...
 
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9751
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2023, 07:19:58 PM »
Military use is hard on guns. Having taken a private firearm to war once upon a time I can tell you that 9+ months  with the infantry will put 4-5 years of “civilian” wear on a pistol.
Based on one of my nearly identical carry guns today.
And I DO understand at some level the aging thing. Especially if the rifle is not used much and someone want a little wear to make it look like they actually used it for something besides a prop. But there is a BIG difference between used and beat up. And a gun with 5-10 years use is not going to look like its 200 years old.

So far as the Cumberland Gap thing. Sorry I cannot show an original with 10-20 years of use. What about the Haymaker rifle? It’s owner was killed on a survey expedition in 1775 Kentucky IIRC. It was brought back and then used by the family or an employee hunting for who know how many years, or how often. Then who knows, isn’t the lock a replacement? This hints that it may have been a plaything at some time or some fool wanted to make it “safe”. Its still in pretty good shape. What did it look like when the original owner died? We do not know. All we see is the rifle 250 years after the fact. This is a long time for an firearm. Its not how it looked in 1775 or even 1800.
I can also tell you that a lot of rifles got used up on the frontier. You can see this in survivors of the 19th C in the West. I knew of  a 1890s design brass suppository rifle kept hanging in the tack room of a barn. Not a good atmosphere. I have a brass suppository rifle belonging to my Dad that is pretty rough. But it was over 30+ mostly “off grid” years in AK and much of that as a homesteader and trapper along the upper Copper River much of it in what is now Wrangle-Mt St Alias NP, which they could not stop him trapping there after it was established since it was “subsistence”.
The William Antes Swivel is in pretty rough shape. But I have also been told that it was, at one time, in the hands of some hack to “preserve” it and did damage to the gun and even lost parts. So how much of the condition is from use, later abuse, someone fiddling with it in 1876 or the hack we do not really know.
I have no idea how long this rifle was in use. 50 years maybe longer.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/09/rifle-and-hunting-pouch-carried-by.html
AND you have no idea how a rifle looked after 10 years of use. Since ALL of them are well over 100 years old, some well over 200.  Rifles were very expensive and were not “throw aways” like the various trade guns were.
But not all owners were as careful as others were.
I have examined 19th c rifles with a LOT of wear (astounding would be a good word) in the bore from PP bullets and still in pretty good shape. You will find others showing less or almost no wear to the bore but pitted and were pretty rough outside. Horses and horse drawn wagons are realy hard on rifles and shotguns and most of the “saddle wear” is really wagon wear. I have spent time in “occupied Gbear habitate” as they say on the signs now with a 50 or 54 cal ML for as much as 20 days at stretch. Horseback, sometimes my horses sometimes my employers. On foot hunting or leading/following hunters (clients) around. I can quarter an elk with an axe and something to drive it. And pack it on horses. I have handfished trout for supper, shot grouse with a FL pistol or rifle  for supper other times. With the horse back stuff, falls in the snow now and then, I have only broken one wrist when I was a kid 16 or so, from being a kid. I did have one split down the grain at the lock bolt don’t really know why but it did. But it was used horse back some.
We are easier on guns than life was 150-250 years ago, true. But we have original guns that still look pretty much as they did in service to look at.  Mostly stuff captured during the Revolution or maybe 1812 and taken back as trophys. Some, unfortunately were  reworked in England. And those not “fixed’ may have been handled a lot after they were trophys.
Blackening the finish as some do is not representative of what the rifle would have looked like if it was used in Kentucky in the 18th c and probably the 19th. The blackening of the remaining finish, if its oil based,  as I have stated before is industrial revolution stuff when lots of coal was being used for industry and home heating. IIRC its the sulfur dioxide. So blackening the finish will make a rifle/gun look as it would in maybe 1860-1890-1960. Not what it looked like in 1800. So this is fantasy. But then thats what aging is. Many years ago I read of some Kentuckians in the 1960s or 70s tipping a canoe and losing rifles in a small river or creek and when retrieved a day or two later, they were badly pitted. Apparently the mud was corrosive. Can’t remember who this happened too. Travel by boat or canoe can be hard on guns as well. So there are variables. Horses are notorious for messed up guns even if you don’t fall off with it. If you have it in a “rifle loop” on a saddle horn it will stay on the horse after you are bucked off. Yeah….
Most of what I have stated here can be confirmed with a little study.
Unfortunately we have very little documentation on ML rifles of the 18th and 19th c. Who used them and for what, for how long…
I do know that in the later Western Fur Trade era a man going to some post as a clerk was advised about a gun among other things, told not to have a varnish finish on his stock but a “grease” finish that was less reflective. I have an idea what this might be but it would be pure guesswork. And it was more important where a reflection could be seen at 5 miles than in the East where visibility was limited.
Finally we have the survivor thing. Lots and lots of rifles/guns of the ML era were used up. We have the Haymaker Kentucky and a few others that something is known about. Then Carson and Bridger Hawkens and I think the Modena rifle as well. These IMO are guns these men owned late in their careers. We have not the slightest idea what Bridger used in the MTN man heyday, since the S Hawken dates to probably 1850ish. I don’t think I have ever seen or seen a photo of the J&S Hawken that that I thought was pre-1832 or so. Most that we see are 1840s-1850s or ever later. They HAD to make flintlocks into the 1830s for the Western trade but we see none. So a lot of rifles and guns simply got used up, lost in a river, burnt in a cabin/house fire, traded to someone who used the barrel for a crow bar, a story from the CA gold fields, true? Could be especially after the advent of the self-contained cartridge. A wounded owner holed up in a hollow tree or cave and died. A trade gun (I was told) and skeleton was found in a “cave”  within 10-15 miles of where I live.
We have early looking Kentuckys  that were converted to percussion in the 1830s-40s. After 50-70 years maybe? And other than corrosion from cap flash look pretty decent. But what were they used for over maybe a 60 or 100 year life span?  I think Dillon and/or maybe Cline were buying rifles one flintlock at least IIRC that were still in use, and not by re-enactors, in the early 20th c.
There is no pat answer to any of this, but there are things done to age guns that are not consistent with actual use but rather to make them look like a rifle did after it had been in a closet or hung on a wall for 50 or 100 years after 50-100 years of use. 
Finally I have to admit that some simply don’t get to use their guns much.  I don’t as much anymore. But I outgrew running around the back country for days or weeks at a time I guess.  And I have a powder horn I made in 68 and used for years and years. It does not look “aged”  either.. Wonder why? But it you know what to look for year it looks  old enough for Social Security. And it is retired now and is probably duller than it would if I was using  it.
I was working on the Guild Newletter. I guess I should get to work on that before my wife gets me back on the remodel….
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Online Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2023, 07:21:35 PM »
Everybody has different experiences with actual use and care of blackpowder rifles as well as conditions of use.  I built a rifle for a guy in upstate NY sometime around 1998 or so.  Delivered to him that June at Ticonderoga.  Brand spanking new, not a hint of aging.  He was at the time very heavily into reenactment as well as primitive hunting and camping, and also for a few years ran a primitive Adirondack guide service with a friend.  At least, that's the story I got.

Anyway - I missed the June encampment the next year but went back up the year after that, so two years since delivery.  When I saw the piece two years later, my jaw hit the floor figuratively.  The thing looked like one of my 100 year old Winchesters.  He had basically been using it day in, day out for two years and admittedly was not gentle (later that weekend he was infamously using the butt to stoke logs in the fire at @ 1am).  I got to visit with that rifle for the next few years but haven't seen him or it since @ 2003-2004.  It may no longer exist for all I know since I heard through the grapevine that his cabin and shop along the river there in Essex was flooded a few years back.

My point being I guess that I don't think it is a fair representation of age to compare a modern 50 year old gun with how a rifle built in 1775 may have looked in 1825.  Then as now, a lot depends upon who owned it and how it was used.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Online Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2023, 07:27:57 PM »
"Blackening the finish as some do is not representative of what the rifle would have looked like if it was used in Kentucky in the 18th c and probably the 19th. The blackening of the remaining finish, if its oil based,  as I have stated before is industrial revolution stuff when lots of coal was being used for industry and home heating. IIRC its the sulfur dioxide. So blackening the finish will make a rifle/gun look as it would in maybe 1860-1890-1960. Not what it looked like in 1800. So this is fantasy."

This is not true.  This was one of Bill Knight's theories, and it may have some validity, but there are many other factors that will contribute to a blackened finish including the stain composition, the oil composition and driers that may have been used in the oil.  Very early on I used nothing but an aquafortis stain and never neutralized.  I also was boiling my own linseed oil of various origins with various driers, and some of those guns went dead black in under 10 years.  Lead composition and type of lead oxide used as a drier will have a dramatic effect on this especially when overlying a nitric acid based stain.  The Peter Angstadt style rifle I have pictured on my website home page is now black as can be, except where rubbed back through use, and it has largely spent most of it's time first in dry, sunny CA never being shot or used and then hanging on an office wall here in central PA.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 10:56:22 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9344
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2023, 09:55:59 PM »
If ANY of us are offered what appears to be an aged and real Hawken  from any time frame,pull the barrel and make sure it does NOT say T.K.Dawsom,Williamsport,Ind and the number of the gun on the bottom flat.Also pull the lock,it may have Roller and the last 2 numbers of the year it was made.Tom was probably the first to build in the accidents and all the mistakes seen in the authentic ones so buyer beware IS a good idea here. Tom offered them for what they were,precise copies and nothing more.
Bob Roller

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7675
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2023, 11:21:42 PM »
New guns now days age differently. Where and how you use/hunt with them will vary the process. In 2017 middle May bear camp just south of Ft. McMurry, AB first hunt with my new and new looking 62 flint. Six inches of wet snow on the ground and had to travel along the 4-lane  on a 4-wheeler with all the oil country traffic throwing alot of slop on every thing. After 6 days my new gun looked like middle age. I try not to abuse my guns but I don't fret taking them out to be used, dam the consequences. It took  extra effort to clean it up but in the end it was worth it. I guess I'm guilty of aging my gun.  :-\

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13255
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2023, 01:06:19 AM »
I could add much to the conversation, but I'm reformed now. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline L Meadows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2023, 02:28:39 AM »
I could add much to the conversation, but I'm reformed now. :P

He’s alive, he’s alive! Come on Brooks, add away!

Online Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2023, 02:30:13 AM »
He's been busy keeping an eye out for 99 luftballoons.

Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline ScottNE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2023, 03:04:36 AM »
EK hit it. If you like guns made and maintained in close to as-new appearance,well-maintained; getchasum. If you like guns that look like they were there, getchasum.

I smile a little when folks share their 20-40 year old guns in fine shape and figure that’s the same as 40 years of use in camp, year-round, all sorts of weather (unless in the desert). I wonder how the originals got to look like they do when they are attic finds. Maybe somebody aged them. No other explanation, really. Let’s ignore that Lewis and Clark had to recut the rifling on their Harpers Ferry rifles in the field on a mere 3 year trip. If the insides were that bad………..

Anyone proposing regulations or restrictions surprises me when in this company. Maybe cars should be made so they have a top speed of 80 mph. To make a car that can go faster than that is just asking for lives to be lost. A much more serious problem than aging. On board? (It’s an analogy)

There was a discussion recently over on another forum regarding the use of reproduction proof marks and stamps on repro guns. The overwhelming opinion was that doing so is wrong, unethical, unjustifiable, and many brought up the possibility of a gun being passed off as an original at some distant point in the future...I was surprised that there is such controversy, having always assumed that historical correctness is generally sought-after.

Many of the posters are in countries where there is indeed a legal consideration with proof marks, but I also considered that to a collector, the primary consideration will be keeping the world of collecting as clean as possible. Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.

Offline ScottNE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2023, 03:05:59 AM »
Speaking of Don King Hawken rifles I had the opportunity to buy one that was heavily used by the famous Blue Jacket Sanders. Blue Jacket hunted and rendezvoused with that gun for decades and the use showed. He worked at Green River Rifle Works was an amazing builder and yet he let that Hawken age gracefully.

I regret not buying it when I had the chance...

Jud Brennan's #87 rifle came up on Morphy's or Cowan's a couple years ago, and to say I regret not snagging it would constitute a drastic understatement.

Offline SDH

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • Fine Gunmaking
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2023, 03:38:48 AM »
I built many M/L guns professionally in the 1970-80s then switches to cartridge guns at clients request and in order to make a living. I always built brand new guns and that was how it was done in those days. Few in brass because I didn't like polished brass as a finished look. What I see in photos of many current guns is poor craftsmanship masked by so-called aging.

We can all see guns with scratches in the metalwork, poor stock sanding and finishing, buggered screws, blackening to cover up lesser workmanship. Quality original guns were well polished, well sanded and finished and look new when they were new.
 
The biggest problem I had with building ML guns was never being able to charge enough to do a really good job carving, of complete metal polishing, and appropriate metal finishing. I see the same in today's prices even the top makers barely getting a living wage to create spectacular guns and rifles. I developed techniques for polished brown finishing, polished rust blueing, nitre bluing and had my color case hardening done by specialists. I always studied and emulated English gunmaking and still do.

As I ease into retirement I have an urge to create flintlock pistols and will strive to do the best craftsmanship and finishing I am capable of, using the same preparation and wood and metal finishes. They will look New when newly made.

This is one of my American Fowlers from 1984 (modified Siler lock, Getz barrel) that has been shot and hunted and shows some natural wear from use. I made everything in the photo.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • NYSSR ―
Re: Used rifles
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2023, 06:46:28 PM »
I like looking at them all, from Taylors' precise replications to Eric and Mikes' believable renditions. This string is about as divisive as the aging brass thing turned into.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln