Author Topic: Full stocked Hawken Flinter  (Read 4387 times)

Offline SHARPS4953

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Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« on: February 08, 2023, 07:52:34 PM »
I'm currently building a full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle in 54 cal. I've shortened the barrel a bit to a manageable 31 inches. My questions are does it really matter whether the barrel wedges come in thru the left (non lock side) or the right (lock side) Is there some written rule on this placement. Also did many Hawken FS have wedge plates? I cant find any original photo's of full stocks with wedge plates.

Thanks     Scott F.

Offline scotti

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2023, 10:22:34 PM »
HI Scott

First off there is no hard and fast rule on placement of your wedge keys. From what I can gather from all my studying of Hawken rifles is I believe the majority of them had the keys coming in from the left side. That being said there are pictures of several rifles with the keys on the right. I can't say they left the Hawken shop this way or where switched sometime during the lifespan of the rifle.  Ultimately it's your rifle put them where you think they will look best.  As far as fullstockers with wedge plates the only one I can think of is the Kennett rifle.  But I think it was made by Sam in 1850, right  after Jake's death. I'm sure more studied members of this forum can provide you with better insight than I can.  Hopefully this helps.

Offline SHARPS4953

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2023, 10:32:05 PM »
Thanks for the information..

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2023, 11:02:58 PM »
My hunch with nothing to back it up is that it was from the left side, same way you mount a horse.
Dan

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Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2023, 11:07:21 PM »
My hunch with nothing to back it up is that it was from the left side, same way you mount a horse.

Unless....the horse is blind....then all bets are off. ;D

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2023, 11:13:56 PM »
I was also assuming mounting the horse facing forward! LOL ;D ;D
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline David Rase

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2023, 01:45:01 AM »
Non lock side to lock side seems to be the norm.
David

Offline rsells

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2023, 03:13:09 AM »
SHARPS4953,
Send me your email and I will try to send you a photo of the Smithsonian full stock Hawken rifle that will help with your build.  I kept getting a note back saying a server is not working when I tried to attach it to this note.  My email address is rbpodge@twlakes.net.  Good luck with your build.
                                     Roger Sells

Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2023, 04:27:48 AM »
I always thought non-lock side to lock side, insert same as lock bolts.
Kunk

Offline Joey R

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2023, 05:47:07 PM »
Non lock side to lock side always made sense to me I’d rather have the head of the key in my offhand side verses the sharp end of the key. Just my opinion.
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

Offline 45-110

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2023, 05:59:43 PM »
Left side is generally perceived as correct, but its not a rule. Also a good horse does not care which side you mount up on!

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2023, 11:01:13 PM »
In Jim Gordon's three volume set on guns of the early west he shows 4 or 5 full stock Hawken rifles, one is a converted flintlock and it looks to me as though at least  on one of those rifles the keys come in on the lock side. With my poor eye it's hard to tell but I can't see any wedge plates.

Offline RAT

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2023, 02:21:28 AM »
The converted flintlock "Hawken" on page 363 of Gordon's book isn't a Hawken. It was made by Jacob Fordney. The photo clearly shows the hammer marks where Fordney's stamping was peened out. It was then overstamped with "J & S Hawken". A couple of weeks ago I started closely examining photos of barrel stamps on known Hawken rifles. There are inconsistencies with this rifle.

With regards to barrel keys... Hawken rifles have rather substantial iron barrel keys. On the rifle Dan and I examined at the MT Historical Society the keys measured...

Body Width: .434"
Head Dimensions (Front Key): .513" x .130"
Head Dimensions (Rear Key): .562" x .145"

As I recall the body of the keys were around 1/16" thick. They were hand made with cold-formed heads.

I personally examined the Fordney rifle on page 363 of Gordon's book. It's currently at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody WY. The barrel keys are very thin brass (not iron) and they have no heads. In fact as we were examining the rifle one of the keys kept sliding out of the slot from both sides as we rotated the rifle around. I was informed by someone on this site that thin brass keys without heads is a Jacob Fordney characteristic.

As far as key escutcheons go... I've only seen photos of two full stock Hawken rifles with escutcheon plates. I think there's a good rationale for that. Hanson in his book "The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History" examined those rifles sold over the period 1831-1858. This includes the "J & S" period... the period after Jacob died in 1849... and the period after Sam retired and turned the business over to William Hawken. Looking at the prices paid, he posed his theory that the less expensive rifles were full stock, and more expensive rifles were half stock. It makes sense to omit key escutcheons on full stocks if you're trying to keep the cost down.

The two full stock rifles I've seen photos of... that have key escutcheons... were both stamped "S. Hawken". So both of these rifles were made after Jacob's death in 1849.

One of these is the "Smithsonian" rifle (because it's in the Smithsonian). Many still think the Smithsonian rifle was a converted flintlock. An article in the December 1977 "Buckskin Report" disproves that (or tries to). A letter written by Vaughn Goodwin is re-printed in the article. He states that he personally examined the rifle in November 1966 and February 1968. He removed the lock from the rifle on both visits. His conclusion is that the rifle was originally a percussion with a full bolster. At some point during it's life the bolster was removed and replaced with a drum. The large cut out on the lock plate was to fit the original bolster. It is oversized for the current drum. There was no indication that a pan was ever present. He believed the fence that is on the lock plate was to fit the original percussion bolster. He stated that the extra hole in the lock plate... that would be for a frizzen spring... was for a 2nd pin that is on the main spring.

I'm unconvinced. I haven't examined the rifle in person, but from the good photos of the lock I was able to get online... I see a filled hole for a frizzen pivot screw... and 2 holes in the right place for a frizzen spring. The plate is also shaped correctly at the front of the bolster to have once had a frizzen. The front hole that looks like it's for a forward lock bolt isn't a bolt hole. Photos show that a hook on the inside of the plate is riveted through this hole. This probably hooks into the front of the mortise to hold the front of the lock. The rifle only has one lock bolt. The lock is also stamped "S. Hawken".
Bob

Offline alacran

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2023, 04:45:16 PM »
I talked to Art Ressel at Friendship a few years back. I inquired about the Hawken Flintlock at the Smithsonian. I don't recall if he went with Mr. Goodwin. He told me that the Smithsonian had asked him to disassemble and inspect the rifle. At any rate he stated that he believed said rifle was always a cap lock
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Offline RAT

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2023, 01:00:57 AM »
It's those small bits of information that are very helpful. Not having known any of these "old timers" personally, I'm collecting all the information I can. Thanks.

Oh... and I'm 58... so I'm pretty old too.
Bob

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2023, 02:37:36 AM »
What gets very tough in situations like this are locks that were originally flintlock that were converted and then built as-new as percussion guns.  Now I can't necessarily put myself exactly in the position of an early percussion era gunstocker, but if I was in that position and percussion guns are now the 'rage' that are selling, and I have older flintlocks on hand, I'm going to convert them rather than just toss them out in the yard and make percussion rifles.  They're perfectly functional locks and it's one heck of an easy job to *remove* parts off a flintlock, slap a percussion hammer on it and do some file work to the pan area.  Done.  Functional percussion lock and everything does what it's supposed to do.

I have seen a LOT of upper Susquehanna rifles - later pieces which straddle the flint/percussion era - that were clearly made with flintlocks that were converted to percussion locks and yet also *equally clearly* were never flintlock when originally stocked.  Some of those makers never even bothered to plug the frizzen/spring holes, and I find that a bit mind blowing now but then I guess it's never really possible to completely understand someone's mindset of a couple f centuries prior.

A large portion of our modern confusion in regard to many of these pieces is unfortunately due to early 20th century (1900-1950s or 1960s) "restorers" who figured if it was originally a flint lockplate, well then gosh darn it, it surely must have been originally a flint gun.  And so it was reconverted, despite never having been flint when originally constructed.
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Offline sbowman

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2023, 07:40:40 AM »

here's a link to smithsonian rifle.  there's three pics. rifle has estuchions

[

Offline sbowman

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2023, 07:42:03 AM »
hmm???? link shows in preview but not posting for some reason

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955

working now.  also note this is a pretty fancy rifle, other fancy one I'm aware of is the "Modena Hawken".

FWIW For you guys new to them there's a half stock one,or at least used to be one, in the Nebraska historical museum???.  A machinist named Robideau?? disassembled it and created a set of blueprints that are unfortunately unavailable today.  I had a set and there were 6 guns built from those prints and all the casting then available were slightly undersized. Don't know if that's true today or if the locks available today are the quality we could get back then. Ron Long made the triggers we used and I believe most of the locks were Robbins, at least that's whats on the Hawken I still have. 

Steve

Steve
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 08:04:37 AM by sbowman »

Offline Jeff Murray

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2023, 12:02:33 AM »
The Hawken rifles in the Buffalo Bill Museum show the barrel keys being inserted from both sides, though most were inserted from the left (non lock) side.  Unknown if this was the way they were installed when original?   All had "plates" around the keys with the exception of one full stock Hawken that had keys inserted from the left through the stock with no plates.  The display includes J&S, S, and W rifles.
Hope this is helpful.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2023, 05:44:35 AM »
I'm currently building a full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle in 54 cal. I've shortened the barrel a bit to a manageable 31 inches. My questions are does it really matter whether the barrel wedges come in thru the left (non lock side) or the right (lock side) Is there some written rule on this placement. Also did many Hawken FS have wedge plates? I cant find any original photo's of full stocks with wedge plates.

Thanks     Scott F.
You're making a fantasy rifle so why worry about wedge plates?Pick a side and go for it.
Bob Roller

Offline SHARPS4953

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2023, 06:15:09 PM »
Thanks for all the replies to my post. I guess I am building a fantasy rifle but who really knows what rule gun builders followed. Was there any law that stated you can't pour a pewter nose cap on a Rupp rifle? LOL (let the screaming begin). Lately I've just noticed wedge key going in thru the non lock side and was just curious. I personally think the gun looks better with the key heads on the other side...so I think i'll install them that a way. Its also gonna have a Moderna patch box, so I'm going all in lol..Thanks again.

Scott F

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2023, 03:41:16 AM »
Thanks for all the replies to my post. I guess I am building a fantasy rifle but who really knows what rule gun builders followed. Was there any law that stated you can't pour a pewter nose cap on a Rupp rifle? LOL (let the screaming begin). Lately I've just noticed wedge key going in thru the non lock side and was just curious. I personally think the gun looks better with the key heads on the other side...so I think i'll install them that a way. Its also gonna have a Moderna patch box, so I'm going all in lol..Thanks again.

Scott F
As I said,GO for it and don't worry about it not being a precise copy of some hallowed relic.One thing about wedge keys,they ARE reversible.
Get it finished and then take it out and shoot it until the rifling is totally gone.
Bob Roller

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2023, 03:38:36 PM »
Thanks for all the replies to my post. I guess I am building a fantasy rifle but who really knows what rule gun builders followed. Was there any law that stated you can't pour a pewter nose cap on a Rupp rifle? LOL (let the screaming begin). Lately I've just noticed wedge key going in thru the non lock side and was just curious. I personally think the gun looks better with the key heads on the other side...so I think i'll install them that a way. Its also gonna have a Moderna patch box, so I'm going all in lol..Thanks again.

Scott F

If you think about it, there were thousands of Hawken rifles out there. Each owner "did their own thing" with their rifle. Wedge keys in from the left, then from the right, and I'm betting some had the rear key in from the left, and the front in from the right.

If you watch the movie "The Revenant" the young kid scrolled a spiral into a water can. How many rifles had their own "personal engravings" done to them.

Build what you want. It's your rifle.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2023, 05:27:57 PM »
I have two Don King Flint Hawkens. Don made these all almost identical. And he made a lot of them in the late 1960s and up till he retired. He had access an original FS percussion and I suspect that it was the rifle on Pg 27 of Baird’s “Hawken RIfles…”
So far as the heavy rifle once owned by Harold Fuller. As a friend of mine stated “The only thing Hawken is the stamp”.
Now its entirely possible that it was converted in the Hawken shop, though the unfilled holes in the plate seem a little sloppy. But most sloppy conversions used a drum and nipple. Maybe freshed as well. It was pretty obviously a match rifle and if the owner won a lot having your name on the barrel was good advertising.
The Smithsonian rifle is obviously converted from flint. Full blown flint “patent” breech. Lock still has the fence from a water proof pan. But this, IMO, was not done by the Hawken Shop.
The Buckskin Report article cited did pretty much step on Goodwin pretty had. But Goodwin was in the “never a flint Hawken” camp (which is silly of course) and reported what he wanted people to think about the rifle and John  corrected him since he had photos of the rifle with the lock removed which leaves no doubt that Goodwins statements were completely bogus. But John got the letter from Goodwin just to get him in a jam. I get the feeling that Goodwin and John might have had some arguments over this prior. But no way to know now and if John ever mentioned it I don’t recall.
I have some photos of the rifle on my computer or maybe on this thing I could post but I think I may have already in another thread sometime back. And I had enough trouble finding the photo below.

This was taken at Chadron, NE  Rendezvous in 1972 IIRC. Don King Hawkens on display. I think the top one was John Bairds which I owned at one time but got broke and had to sell it.


Other than one by Bob (RAT) and one I did years ago as a percussion, these are the only FS Hawkens that look right. Don made all the hardware but the barrels in shop. Carney Pace made lock internals for him (Schilliger used the same internals) and he bought the cocks, frizzens and springs for the lock. I know of 2-3 at least that have been used a lot won many matches and have killed a lot of deer, Elk etc. With no failures related to heattreating or Don’s work. I consider thsi the best FL hunting rifle ever made. And standard was 38” barrel. And I have hunted in the brush with mine and killed a number of whitetails in creek bottoms with it. A friend of mine did order one with a 32” barrel but he also spent a lot of time on a horse at the time.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Full stocked Hawken Flinter
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2023, 05:29:38 PM »
Well the photo is dated 1973 so I guess it was not 72  ::)
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine