When to epoxy bed barrel

[Lone Wolf]

I'm sure this topic has been covered at length but I have not been able to find the answer to this specific question by searching the forum...

If epoxy bedding a barrel as part of a new build, should it be done before the tang screw and lugs are installed, or after all the barrel connections have been installed? 

Thanks

[Mauser06]

Most of us would skip it.   


But if you wish, I'd do it when everything is where it's supposed to be. And I wouldn't wanna cut bedding with my good chisels so I'd probably Inlet the lugs but not drill them.  If you drill them, you run a decent risk of it locking in place.  I'd Inlet everything where it's supposed to be...bed it, clamp it with medium force and let it cure.  I might actually drill it while it's clamped but after it's cured. That way your pins will be holding the bedded stock to the barrel fully.

Don't forget release agent!   

[Ky-Flinter]

If you are going to do it, I think bedding the barrel before the tang screw and lugs are installed would be easier and will reduce the chances of permanently attaching the barrel to the stock.  If the barrel lugs are installed and the inlets happen to cut into the ramrod hole or groove, that's another problem to deal with.  Be sure to pack modeling clay into any recessed areas on the barrel that would create a manual lock, like the sides of the breech plug at the end of the barrel.

Mauser is right about not drilling the pins before bedding.  Johnson's paste wax is a good release agent.

Ron

[smart dog]

Hi,
I usually paint my barrel channels with a varnish thin coat of AcraGlas. I do that because it strengthens the thin barrel channel walls significantly (3-10 times stronger than bare wood).   I always do that right after I've inlet the barrel and before the lugs are attached and before I inlet the barrel tang.  I do this even on barrels inlet by machine by Dave Keck or Dave Rase. Here are some images showing the barrel channel with mortises inlet for barrel lugs.

 





dave

[Dave Marsh]

Dave, do you thin the accraglass at all or just paint on a thin coat with a paint brush? Thanks.

[Dphariss]

I'm sure this topic has been covered at length but I have not been able to find the answer to this specific question by searching the forum...

If epoxy bedding a barrel as part of a new build, should it be done before the tang screw and lugs are installed, or after all the barrel connections have been installed? 

Thanks

Other than possibly at the breech, a ML barrel should not need bedding for accuracy. And its a PITA if the underlugs are already installed or dovetails for them cut.
A light coat at the breech end of the barrel can strengthen the wood there, water/oil proof it and if the inletting is not uniform it will give a uniform recoil pad.

If someone other than the maker pulls the barrel they automatically think the maker screwed up somehow and had to bed the barrel as a fix. At least that would be my first thought.

[alacran]

The only good reason to bed a barrel besides adding strength as Smart Dog suggests, is that it will make the barrel channel waterproof.
Nothing comes close to epoxy for waterproofing. Most important place to do this is the breech area, since there is a lot of exposed end grain.

[flatsguide]

Being a name dropper here, but when Ron Long and I were doing a lot of shooting together in the seventies in Denver he and I would glass bed our muzzleloaders with Acraglass for best accuracy. The way we did it was to bed the barrel and tang as best we could...no gaps. Then, starting from two inches forward of the first tenon from the breech we would we would remove about a 1/16” of wood all the way back and including the tang. We would not remove wood along the edges so as to leave a nice metal to wood fit. But the real “trick” to our accuracy was not to leave an expansion slot in the tenon closest to the breech, that was left tight. All other tenons were slotted for heat expansion of the bbl or moisture expansion or shrinkage of the wood. We left a little pile of mixed glass that we used on the mixing board to be able to feel the hardness of the Acraglass as it was kicking off. We did not wait until it was hard to remove the bb/tang but usually waited until the epoxy was like hard rubber. We also used fiberglass flock in the mix. Our rifles shot very well bedding this way.
I’ve slways thought that an “oil” finish was not the best way to finish a rifle stock as the oil is not a water vapor barrier. The first coat I put on after any stain was a mixture of urethane and thinner 50/50 and warmed to decrease the mixtures viscosity. After all sanding/de-whiskering was done the mixture was liberally brushed on until all the wood and unglassed barrel channel included would not absorb anymore sealer, especially the end grain. After about ten minutes have past the wood was rubbed down to bare wood. After this I wet sand the exterior with unthinned urethane the sanding ‘dust’ starts to fill the pores of the wood and after this coat starts to ‘tack up’ it is rubbed down as before. Do this as many times as it takes to fill the pores. When the pores are filled I use a Jim Chambers oil for a nice ‘oil’ finish. This is just one of many ways of finishing...hope it helps.
Richard

[Scota4570]

My first ML was a TC Hawken flint.  The barrel channel was sloppy from the factory.  I used a Lyman 57 peep sight mounted on the tang.  Glass bedding the barrel and tang made it all solid.  That cut the groups in half. 

[Daryl]

I've been glass bedding rifles since 1973. My 20 bore 1/2 stock, made by a fellow named A. Hunkeler, is bedded full length of the barrel channel in
what looks like Brownell's micro-bed. It's a perfect job.  My .69 Sporting rifle made by Taylor, which kicks a LOT more, is perfectly bedded in wood
only and has been shooting very well indeed, since 1986, when he built it. It's been shot with up to 330gr. of 2F GOEX with one 482gr. patched ball.
It's regular hunting and long range target load is 165gr. 2F GOEX with the same 482gr. round ball.  It's close range load is currently 113gr. 2F Scheutzen
with the 482gr. round ball.
It's stock is Claro Walnut, not known for it's strength in comparison to maple.

[Berksrifle]

 In 1977 I bought my T/C Hawken. My P.O.I would change when took the barrel out to clean it. After 2 years I glass bedded the barrel. Never had to touch my sights since 1979.

 Ken

[barracudadave67]

I glass bed all my BBLs. Been doing it since the 70s. I think it helps with strength, and also keeps the BBL channel from soaking up oils, and moisture. It really helps accuracy.

Im finishing up  a Pedersoli Trade Musket kit right now, and am almost ready to glass bed it.

Dave

[Bill in Md]

Hard Maple that is inlet properly will provide a wonderful bed for a barrel or tang to rest in.

[smart dog]

Dave, do you thin the accraglass at all or just paint on a thin coat with a paint brush? Thanks.

Hi Dave,
I add just a little flock to the mix but it remains not much thicker than the resin and hardener alone.  I tint it with LMF stains to match the eventual color of the stock.  I pour it into the barrel channel and spread it with a popsicle stick so it is evenly spread.  I make sure to coat the vertical walls of the barrel channel but I do not coat the breech end.  I plug the breech of the barrel with clay.  The barrel is coated with furniture paste wax, two coats, let dry, and buffed off a little bit.  I press the barrel into the barrel channel and push it home with C clamps.  I tighten the clamps down hard so most of the epoxy squeezes out of the channel and the residual is compressed into the wood.  I let it dry and cure overnight with a temperature in the shop of at least 75 degrees F.  To remove the barrel, I heat it with a heat gun until too hot to touch, and then slowly pry the barrel out of the stock starting at the muzzle.  I insert a wooden peg in the muzzle and hammer it upward with a mallet until the barrel starts to come out.  Then I use the peg as a handle and slowly raise the barrel out until about 2/3s of the way from the muzzle. At that point, I take the peg, put it under the exposed barrel where it fits and use it as a fulcrum to slowly and gently lever out the breech of the barrel. Eventually, the barrel pops out nicely. 

I learned of the advantages of a thin coat of AcraGlas when making a swivel breech rifle using Dave Price's action and barrels.  This was not a Dave Price kit but just the barreled action and I built the stock from scratch.  Here is that rifle. It was for someone who needed 15" LOP and almost 3.75" of drop at heel.

   
















In the process of making that rifle I had to make the side panels along the barrels.  The barrels are soldered together so the panels are separate on either side.  Each has a "V" rib underneath that fits into the notch formed by the barrels.  But on the ramrod side, that "V" rib is paper thin to allow for the ramrod groove and hole. Dave Price makes them on his milling machine, I had to make them by hand using planes and my table saw. Anyway, I broke 2 side panels with the ramrod groove and searched for some solution to their fragility.  I intuited an advantage of a thin epoxy coat on the underside. So I tested my idea.  I took a piece of sugar maple, cut it into a bunch of thin flat strips, and then painted half of them on one side with AcraGlas and not the other half.  After the epoxy dried, I suspended each strip of wood by the ends and pulled down the middle with a hook attached to a simple luggage scale.  I measured the weight needed to break each strip.  To my surprise, the thin epoxy coating increased strength 3 to 10 fold over the bare wood.  The variation was due to the wood itself but I captured that variation in my experimental design.  I learned a lot from that experiment.

dave

[Dphariss]

I have bedded a lot of “those” guns. And a few MLs in places as well. But its not something I do on a regular basis on MLs. But when I  was making BS guns a very thin, undetectable, layer (fit was 0 before bedding) was used to seal the end grain and since they were prone to cracking in certain places it helped with that too. When my wife was fitting production Shilohs she fitted to .001” or less then bedded them. She used Micro-Bed which was “standard”, but I detested it so I used Acrap-Glas on the customs. If the forends on a two piece stock were warped and would then “pull down” with the screws were put in I would bed these to a flat surface or inlet depending.
IIRC I bedded the standing breech and short section of the breech of the barrel on the 16 bore. Just for recoil insurance.  I sometimes use it on repairs. But its not my favorite for most such things, its for fixing in place reenforcing rods and such.
I am no stranger to bedding. Just don’t like it on MLs unless there is a reason. Though there is some on the side panels of my swivel breech

[Lone Wolf]

Thanks for all the replies, as always the advice here is priceless.

I'm bedding this particular build to correct poor inletting on the part of the pre-carved stock.  The vendor, who I will not name out of respect, was having QC issues with the stock supplier at the time.  I didn't discover some of the issues until I had already invested a lot of time in the build and decided I'd make do.

However, I'm not averse to bedding even where PC is a concern because if done right, it is unseen and I believe it adds strength and durability to the stock.  Sure it's not historically accurate, but neither was the FedEx truck that delivered the stock to me, nor the electric lights that I use in my shop, nor the SUV I will transport the gun in when I take it out hunting.  To me, the insurance and peace of mind provided by the bedding is worth the trade of a finer point of historical accuracy.

[Dave Marsh]

Thanks for the great narrative, Dave.  Very helpful.

[flatsguide]

Dave, that is a beautiful rifle, well done!
CheersRichard

[davec2]

I don't usually bed the entire barrel but I do bed every breech and almost every butt plate.  I don't do either because of visible gaps in the inletting but to protect the end grain exposed in both locations.  It is easy to get water and / or oil damage at the breech over time.  And, I don't care how good you are at inletting, there is no substitute for the complete contact of the barrel breech with the inlet if the breech is bedded properly.  This will not only strengthen the weakest area of the stock some but also insures that recoil will not put undo pressure on any one high spot.  The barrel will be in as close a physical contact with the stock as is humanly possible.  As for the butt plate, here again a significant amount of the damage I have seen on many modern and muzzleloading rifles is water absorption in the wood end grain under the butt plate.  Bedding the butt plate makes that type of damage almost impossible. 

I have had a few people look askance at this type of bedding as "non traditional".  Of course neither is a 12L14 (or other alloy) barrel, cast or CNC machined lock parts, or working in my shop under electric lights.  But as my very dear friend, Jerry Huddleston, used to say, "If Dickert or Beck had had these things, they would have used 'em !"

[Lone Wolf]

davec2, I agree with you.  I have never bedded a butt plate but instead treat the end grain with LMF permalyn sealer for the same purpose.   I also bed the breech area and to the front of the lock, and seal the rest of the barrel channel with LMF.

[Bill in Md]

I think the misunderstanding of the word "traditional" may be the issue. Granted, glass bedding has a "tradition" amongst some 20th and 21st century stockers and builders. Much in the same way that some  modern bowyers consider fiberglass backing a bow to be "traditional" because it goes back to the mid 1900's.

With that said it should be pointed out that traditionally all guns from pre-rev right through the early 1900's were made of 3 things, wood, iron, and brass. In the same way all bows prior to that point were made of solely, or combinations of wood, horn, sinew and baleen. That "tradition" still stands and is practiced by some today.

I do not however see the use of artificial lighting, modern barrels and machined locks as a modernization of the art, provided we stick to the "tradition" of building with wood, brass, and iron in "traditional" manners.

[Wingshot]

Interesting topic! My question is this, can plumbers putty be used in lieu of modeling clay if I were to pack it in the recess at the breech? After reading through this topic I think I’m going to bed the breech end of my inlet since I’m at a point where it would be now or never.

[Daryl]

Interesting topic! My question is this, can plumbers putty be used in lieu of modeling clay if I were to pack it in the recess at the breech? After reading through this topic I think I’m going to bed the breech end of my inlet since I’m at a point where it would be now or never.

I don't see why not, however  the clay does have oil in it, does it not? I don't know if this is a problem re:absorption into the wood.
I have used Plasticine to good use, in my bedding of barrels, etc.

[Dphariss]

I'm sure this topic has been covered at length but I have not been able to find the answer to this specific question by searching the forum...

If epoxy bedding a barrel as part of a new build, should it be done before the tang screw and lugs are installed, or after all the barrel connections have been installed? 

Thanks

Best to make SURE the barrel is at its final position. I would make sure the tang screw was in and kept the barrel in the right place.  I would not do any pins/keys/underlugs. Wax all the metal with paste floor wax. Twice. Fill any voids with wax as well. AND MAKE SURE ITS DRY do not polish off and do not get uncured wax on the wood where its to be stained. And any time you glass bed there is a risk something is gonna be difficult.

[Dphariss]

Interesting topic! My question is this, can plumbers putty be used in lieu of modeling clay if I were to pack it in the recess at the breech? After reading through this topic I think I’m going to bed the breech end of my inlet since I’m at a point where it would be now or never.

Use paste floor wax.