Author Topic: French rifles?  (Read 1640 times)

Offline Rt5403

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French rifles?
« on: February 16, 2023, 04:35:45 AM »
I see a lot of English and German rifles and we see the fusil de chasse. With there being french west in Arkansas and Louisiana. What rifles would they have carried mid 18th century up to the start of the 19th century? Sorry about my ignorance on the subject.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2023, 04:55:17 AM »
France did not have a rifle culture. Somehow they survived using smoothbores in the South, West, North, and Northeast. Of course, there were some fur trade era French trappers and traders well-acquainted with rifles because Americans had them, and probably used what was common at the time if they desired rifles.

It’s not surprising you know little about the French use of rifles. You’re in the same bateau as everyone else, because there is so little to know.
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Offline Rt5403

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2023, 05:07:38 AM »
France did not have a rifle culture. Somehow they survived using smoothbores in the South, West, North, and Northeast. Of course, there were some fur trade era French trappers and traders well-acquainted with rifles because Americans had them, and probably used what was common at the time if they desired rifles.

It’s not surprising you know little about the French use of rifles. You’re in the same bateau as everyone else, because there is so little to know.

I appreciate the info. Kind of what I was thinking just wasn't sure. Guess I'll continue with the plan of building an early Virginia rifle.

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2023, 05:23:08 AM »
It's odd that the French did not embrace rifles seeing as a lot of the technology was originally developed near Alsace-lorraine. Perhaps the very people who would have given them technology were driven off by religious persecution. I understand that a large part of the boom in the English gun making industry were large numbers of displaced protestants from France. The English were slow to accept rifles as they didn't see the need for them either militarily or for hunting. The Scots adopted rifles for hunting, but to the English a rifled gun was more of a novelty. Only after learning from rifle equipped Americans and Germans of the true effectiveness of a rifle in certain situations and a general trend in military thinking toward independant thinking light infantry skirmishers did rifles become more popular in the British military and consequentially in the gunmaking industry and public in general. Engkish rifles are very rare before the Seven Years war, and only became prevelant after the American Revolution. The French military never had the same experience. Their colonial military presence was much smaller than the British and their experience was to limited to have a serious impact on mainstream military thinking, which was somewhat hidebound in the Royalist period, and completely dominated by massed skirmishes firing as rapidly and as quickly as possible in the Revolutionary period. By the Napoleanic period, the French colonial presence in North America was pretty much cut off and the French speakers in North America were left to develop on their own under local influence.
 
Mike

Offline smart dog

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2023, 03:38:36 PM »
Hi,
In both France and England, only wealthy land owners could hunt big game so hunting with rifles was not widespread. Breech loading "deer park" rifles were made in England beginning in the mid-17th century and even the early turn-off pistols were sometimes rifled.  However, there was no incentive to evolve a common rifle culture in either country.  As Mattox Forge wrote, that changed a little militarily for the British because of experience fighting in North America.  Officers sometimes had rifles made for them so they could hunt big game in America.  That may be the only opportunity for them to do so and they sometimes hunted for the regiment. There also was the incentive of neutralizing the American riflemen during our war for independence.  However, the British did that effectively by employing their light infantry (some of whom were issued Birmingham pattern rifles) and their German jaeger allies.  It really wasn't until the Napoleonic wars that the British developed permanent rifle companies and regiments.  From a civilian sporting standpoint, the extension of the empire during the 19th century to include much of Africa and India provided opportunities for more British sportsmen to hunt big game.  Consequently, rifles became more popular and more were produced.  The French took much longer to follow suit and never did militarily until the percussion era and the hollow-based bullet.  However, during the late 18th century, they had another government firearms factory that we often overlook, Versailles.  At that facility, they made two rifled carbines that were issued to both land and naval forces. They were never popular and eventually they were abandoned. Allegedly, it was a French marine shooting one of those carbines who killed Nelson at Trafalgar.  I do not know how true or documented that is.

dave   
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2023, 10:37:52 PM »
Maybe the French should have looked closer at the rifle.I once read that because of the American with his long rifle that the British thought the Americans had a secret weapon that selected only obvious officers and didn't realize the accuracy of the long rifle as proved by E.M.Brank I think with his 400 yard hits.
Later Joseph Whitworth made it a bad idea to be in plain view at 1000 yards and then all kinds of development happened in the evolution of rifle shooting and long range competition came to being a very interesting thing even until today.
Bob Roller

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2023, 06:18:04 AM »
Actually the British recognized and appreciated the rifle. In 1777 or 78 The Ordnance Office conducted extensive tests at Woolwich with a captured rifle (they called it a "New York Rifle") and prepared a report that went to select high-ranking officials. I believe the copy of the report that I have seen scans of went to the King. None of this has ever been published and relatively few even know of it but it's proof that they were keenly aware of American rifles and curious to find out just how good they were.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2023, 11:40:57 PM »
I’m at work right now, but there were some French military rifled arms from the flint era.
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2023, 12:10:37 AM »
During the Napoleonic Wars, the French had rifled carbines used by some officers and cavalry, but even their elite sharpshooters/skirmishers were armed with smoothbores from what I recall reading. I don't believe rifles were widely used by the French, but my reading on the specifics of their weapons is limited for sure.
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Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2023, 01:44:23 AM »
I recall reading somewhere, that Napoleon didn't think rifled guns were a good idea militarily due to the reloading difficulty, and consequently forbade their use in his armies.

Mike

Offline rich pierce

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2023, 03:07:40 PM »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2023, 04:05:52 PM »
Certainly is an unusual piece. I am curious about the dates. It looks later than the French and Indian War, but perhaps French styling is different than English styling. The double set triggers are interesting as well. I wonder if it was a smooth bore gun some one over here reworked into a rifle with a set trigger. The thumb screw side nail is interesting as well.

Mike
« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 05:24:10 PM by Mattox Forge »

Offline alacran

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2023, 05:15:12 PM »
Some German rifles had thumb screws for lock bolts. the front one may have been lost. There is a wheellock in Shumway's Jaeger book that have them.
I saw another one in a book but do not remember where.
It is really seems practical to me, and would make it more difficult to over tighten them.
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Offline backsplash75

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Re: French rifles?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2023, 10:00:44 PM »
There is a brief discussion of French military issued rifled carbines for mounted use in Chartrand's French Military Arms and Armor in America 1503-1783 on pages 143-145.