Author Topic: Horn Throat Staining Experiment  (Read 7156 times)

Offline davec2

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Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« on: November 16, 2009, 02:13:03 AM »
I have been busier than a one legged man in a fanny kicking contest lately with real world contract work and have not had any time to work on rifles and the other fun projects.  However, I have been interested for quite some time in better ways to permanently stain and color organic materials and have always been interested in the chemistry behind the visual effect.  I recently purchased a copy of Bill Knight and Bill Mende's excellent book on "Staining and Finishing for Muzzleloading Gun Builders" and the two "Bills" have been very gracious in their help answering some of my questions.
 
Just to keep my hands busy for a few minutes each evening, I have been carving the front end of a couple of scrap horns.  In the past, if the throat needed staining, I have used leather and Rit dyes or silver nitrate with varying degrees of success.  In the following photo of a group of my past horns, some had a naturally black tip, but most were stained by the above methods.  They look fine, but the dye is not very durable.



In the next two pictures, the throats of these horns were painted with silver nitrate and exposed to bright sunlight for a day or two. On human skin, this produces a very purplish black, very permanent stain.  On horn, it is more on the purple side than black and, if you add a second application, the color actually gets lighter.  So these were stained as dark as they would go with the silver nitrate and then evened up and darkened with dark brown leather dye.  But, over time, they have had to be retouched as the dye wears off easily at the high spots.  (Of course, you can just leave this alone and enjoy the worn look, but I am experimenting with staining here.)





The next two pictures show the latest horn throat experiment done on a scrap horn in a two step process with iron nitrate (prepared by slow dissolution of iron in diluted nitric acid) followed by gallic acid.  Unfortunately, I did not think to take pictures along the way, but I will do so in the next experimental run.  The tip of this horn was roughly the same color as the body of the horn when I started.  To summarize the coloring process, I carved the throat area and polished it to about a 400 grit finish.  The iron nitrate was then painted on the slightly off white natural surface and allowed a day to dry.  Heat was applied, with a hot air gun, and the throat turned a pleasing, translucent amber (much like honey).  The tip can easily be left this way with a very pleasing effect.  However, I applied a second coat and heat treatment, but no further darkening occurred.  After a few days of sitting on my bench, I dissolved a little gallic acid (solid powder) in warm water and painted it on the throat.  Immediately, as I was applying the gallic acid, the horn turned this color black.  If scraping some of the black off from around the engrailed edge is any indication, this coloring is very durable as it took considerable effort to remove it with a sharp scraper.  Based on what I read in another horn post, I thought some of you might be interested in this coloring process.  And again, I would like to thank Bill Knight and Bill Mende for their writings and their advice on the preparation and used of 18th century stains and finishes.

(P.S.  The white tip on the horn below is an applied antler turning.....another experiment.)




« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 07:20:40 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 02:36:17 AM »
I'd say your experiment met with 100% success Dave.  I have two horns that were dyed on the tips and which have worn off to the point of being ugly now.  It is worth the effort and time to give your method a try.  Thanks for this great break through.
Now, where can one acquire gallic acid?
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 03:44:35 AM »
Gallic acid appears to be a miracle potion.... ::) ::)  not only a good staining agebt for horns. ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_acid


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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 04:04:54 AM »
Thanks Tim...I'll try our pharmacists for the powder.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Brian

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 04:27:02 AM »
I'll have to go back and re-read all the information on the stain.  Missed it the first time as I was too busy drooling all over the keyboard (shorted it out) looking at those beautiful horns!  Wow!
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Offline davec2

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 05:06:17 AM »
Taylor,

I was given the gallic acid I have by Bill Mende.  It is available from several chemical supply houses (Spectrum, Fisher, etc.)  It is expensive, but I dissolved very little in water to use on the horn (not more than a gram.)  I don't know if there is anything sold by the vitamin / dietary supplement guys that will work. 

The black color is the result of forming iron tannate in the surface of the horn material.  Perhaps the same can be done with tannic acid rather than gallic and the tannic might be prepared from acorns or tree bark?  I will ask the "Bills".
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Campchair

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 06:36:46 AM »
Absolutely beautiful horns! - I'm very impressed. Also, where can you get the book on stains? Campchair

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 06:58:20 PM »
Beautiful work.  This is a whole new art form from the folk art I try and do.

Kanniks Korner used to publish an old pamphelt from 1764 called:

The Handmaid To The Arts Teaching The Various Manners of staining wood, ivory, bone, horn, alabaster, marble, and other stones of various colors. 

the ISBN number is 0-9640161-1-7

I have a copy of it but have never tried any of the methods.  Some of the stuff is pretty toxic so I just leave it be. 

Coryjoe

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 03:21:06 PM »
Dave,
Thanks for your report on horn coloring.  First your horns always look amazing, and these are great-looking as well.  I always enjoy seeing your work.

The coloring experiment has been a help to me.  The comments  between stages interested me.  I'm in a screw-tip stage right now, and the result you got half way through with the iron nitrate is somethig I will try.  I have a scrap horn that is on the receiving end of a number of experiments.  It will get the iron nitrate treatment.  Up until now my horn coloring has been limited to Rit dye, so this seems like a logical next step. 

Thanks for your information and for the look at your horns.  BTW, I'm still finding uses for your depth gage.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2009, 05:44:54 AM »
I'd say your experiment met with 100% success Dave.  I have two horns that were dyed on the tips and which have worn off to the point of being ugly now.  It is worth the effort and time to give your method a try.  Thanks for this great break through.
Now, where can one acquire gallic acid?
Taylor,  I don't know if you can have the stuff shipped to Canada but I have bought a lot of chemicals from this company,  http://www.kyantec.com/catalog.htm  They advertise from a spoonful to a truckload.  They are one of the few companies that will sell to an individual.  I found a lot of chemical supply houses inthe past but they would only sell to a chemical lab or a school.
DMR

Offline davec2

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2009, 08:18:01 PM »
Campchair,

I believe the book is still available from Bill Mende  (billmende@epix.net)

Pletch,

The iron nitrate alone works great for a yellowish tint to the horn.  I will post some before and after pictures on a silver mounted horn I made quite some time ago but never engraved.  I have never been much of a fan of artificial aging, but the many beautiful horns done that way enticed me enough to give it a try.  So I tinted the horn with iron nitrate and heat - the pictures will do a better job of explaining.   And I'm glad the depth gage is useful for you.  I use mine all the time.

Dave R,

Thanks for the chemical supply house link.  They do have gallic acid listed as being available.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2009, 03:07:41 AM »
Yes, DR, thanks a lot.  I'll give them a call.  Can't hurt to try.

D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

hammerhead

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Re: Horn Throat Staining Experiment
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2009, 08:44:50 PM »
man what talent