Author Topic: ignition problems please help (Read 3422 times)

adkmountainken · « **on:** February 19, 2023, 08:16:54 PM »

i have been having bad ignition problems with my .54 Hawken and at first i thought it was a bit of bad lock placement and a member on here did some fantastic work to correct it. went to the range today first 2 shots flawless then could not get ignition for the life of me! touch the flash hole with pick and can feel dry powder right where it should be flash hole is clear. priming with FFFF pan powder getting great ignition lot of fire. i am no flintlock expert BUT have shot a LOT. after looking over and over as well as before the continuing problem here i feel the vent liner and touch hole is just a tad to high and off center to the right. i have had worse then this with no problem BUT it is all i can come up with. barrel and breech were THOROUGHLY cleaned and dried, GREAT spark and flash, i am at a loss including pic's here. any ideas? forum member is now coning the vent liner for me and will try again.

adkmountainken · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2023, 08:18:13 PM »

i feel/think most of the priming charge maybe be hitting just to the right of the touch hole?? i also have video of the missfires.

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2023, 08:25:03 PM »

It’s a patent breech, right? You say you feel or see powder in the touchhole, so I guess it’s not that the breech isn’t filling. I’d blow down the barrel after firing when nobody is looking to make sure it’s clear.

adkmountainken · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2023, 08:27:38 PM »

i did its clear i do it after every shot. though had problem fixed when gap between lock and touchole was fixed.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2023, 09:22:29 PM »

How large is the hole in the plug - the anti-chamber? If it is only 3/8", it may be that your powder is bridging when you pour in the charge, and not filtering down into the hole in your plug. If that is the problem, you can enlarge the cavity with a larger drill bit, but be sure the cavity is smaller than the bore of the rifle, or you will have cleaning problems. When you load the rifle, you should be able to see powder through the vent hole. when that is the case, your ignition will be instantaneous and reliable.

Daryl · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2023, 09:30:57 PM »

Exactly. With all 3 of my flinters - 3 different makers but all with Chamber's White Lightning liners, I see powder at the vent hole.
Ignition is a must of the vent hole is clear and not blocked by fouling. I had a lock that did that but only if I shot the rifle (.40 & .45 bls.) with 2F.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2023, 09:38:59 PM »

If your ante chamber is small and you dump the powder down too fast you can get that bridging of powder but if you start your powder slowly down it will trickle into that chamber easier. A slight cone in the face of that plug should also help in getting the powder into that chamber

smylee grouch · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2023, 09:41:53 PM »

Also if you clean between shots you risk pushing some fouling in front of the ante chamber hole thus making it harder to get the powder to flow into the chamber

walt53 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2023, 10:14:10 PM »

I have a similar problem with my 28 g smoothbore and do to the weather have not had a chance to work it out.How much oil are you putting on your patch when you clean an store your gun after you shoot .And are you cleaning all that oil out before you shoot say using lots of 70% alcohol to get all the oil out.And after cleaning are you standing your gun barrel down so the oil doesn’t concentrate in the breech.Im thinking to much oil and not storing my gun barrel down could be my problem.Just a thought because if your like me ,if a little oil is good a lot is better😳. Walt

Rawhide Rick · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2023, 03:55:42 AM »

This gun is at my house at the moment. We now know that it has a chambered breech, if that is the correct term. Smaller internal diameter by the vent hole than the rest of the 54 caliber barrel. Cleaning rod drops to the bottom without a jab. Put a 54 jag on and you have a 2.3” difference. Minus the length of the jag at 1”, that leaves about a 1.3” deep chamber of something less than 54 diameter. Gun was squeaky clean and bone dry for the first 2 shots this morning. Vent hole was open and a flashlight shined down the barrel was clearly visible through the vent hole.

Fouling of some kind? Seems odd that 2 shots would take the gun to non functioning.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2023, 04:08:40 AM »

What ball size, patch thickness and patch lube are being used? Are you/they swabbing/cleaning between shots?

rich pierce · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2023, 05:31:53 AM »

Depending on how the patent breech and vent liner (if any) are set up, you could have effectively a thick wall there where the touchhole is. And a long path to the charge. What’s the actual hole size? 1/16”?

I’ve seen more problems with patent breeches than plain breeches. I know that when designed and set up properly they can be fast and reliable. But it’s almost certain that the barrel needs to be flushed with water shooting out the vent hole when cleaning to keep them crud-free. I’ve re-worked some production gun patent breeches so that there’s no “step” from the main bore to the powder chamber, increased the diameter of the powder chamber, and polished the works internally so powder flows readily into it and it’s more easily cleaned.

Daryl · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2023, 05:38:20 AM »

Quote from: walt53 on February 19, 2023, 10:14:10 PM

I have a similar problem with my 28 g smoothbore and do to the weather have not had a chance to work it out.How much oil are you putting on your patch when you clean an store your gun after you shoot .And are you cleaning all that oil out before you shoot say using lots of 70% alcohol to get all the oil out.And after cleaning are you standing your gun barrel down so the oil doesn’t concentrate in the breech.I'm thinking to much oil and not storing my gun barrel down could be my problem.Just a thought because if your like me ,if a little oil is good a lot is better😳. Walt

AFTER cleaning all the fouling out of my bore and drying it, I spray WD40 into the bore until it runs out the vent. Then I patch that out with a dry patch, blasting the excess out the vent with 3 or 4 strokes full length of the patch. That carries virtually all of ANY residual moisture out of the bore. I then reassemble my rifle and store it muzzle down in the lockup. This way, it is impossible for there to be oil in the breech area. I never have to wipe or clean after a shot and loading the next one, so I have no problem with plugging any flash channels with fouling, as some people do.

T.C.Albert · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2023, 02:09:15 PM »

Sorry, but I have to ask a dumb question. You are loading the main charge with pure black powder right?
Pyrodex in a flint lock acts much as you are describing too.
TCA

Dphariss · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2023, 04:53:12 PM »

When I install a vent liner I try for about a .030 web between the barrel flat and the internal counter bore. Daryl is explaining the same thing. How much prime are you using? ALWAYS fill the pan at LEAST 3/4 full. Trying to skimp on priming will make a good firing rifle into a flash in the pan headache. Flintlocks fire off heat in the pan. More fire is better.

Dphariss · « **Reply #15 on:** February 20, 2023, 05:06:58 PM »

The only other thing is that if the powder is forming flakes in the bore that can block the vent it will prevent ignition. I have a rifle with a Nock design breech. I have not tried any powder other than Swiss and once some Schuetzen I had. FF in both cases. The rifle never even hiccups with Swiss. With Schuetzen which creates flakes of fouling it will simply stop working in 2-3 shots if a flake of fouling falls off the bore and covers the passage to the antechamber in the breech. Then I have to run FFFF in the vent to fire the rifle. But a vent pick should cure this in a simple breech.
If you have good spark and the pan always lights, if you are using enough prime, if it works well for 2-3 shots, then you likely have a fouling issue. So try after firing, turn it muzzle down over the sheet of paper the tap the barrel with something or wood a plastic hammer or even the heal of your hand and see what comes out. And as previously stated you should be able to see the powder at the vent when the rifle is loaded or after the charge is poured in.

Dphariss · « **Reply #16 on:** February 20, 2023, 05:09:20 PM »

If you have not already try some FFF powder. What weight charge are you shooting? How large is the chamber in the breech? Does your charge not fill the cavity completely (doubtful but ?). BTW 3/8” is OK. I have a 50 cal swivel with 3/8 chamber in the “patent” breeches and its perfectly reliable. But I shoot Swiss in everything.

Dphariss · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2023, 05:20:57 PM »

Chances are the breech in your rifle is similar to the one on the left here. Though I suspect the passage down to the vent is much larger than this. To the right is a Nock Patent breech.

This is the Nock breech in my English style rifle from the bore side. It is cross drilled for the vent liner creating the “antechamber”

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2023, 05:32:08 PM »

Yes, without the Nock anti-chamber you are pretty well hooped with the patent breech.
It Is an easy fix to make up the anti-chamber.
Without it, all I can suggest is opening up the touchhole.
I never liked a 1/16" touchhole.

Good luck and hope you get it runing right!

adkmountainken · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2023, 06:36:26 PM »

i was running an 80 grain charge of FF Goex, a hand cast .535 ball weiging 229 grains with a .018 pillow tick patch greased with a lube of 50/50 Mink oil & Neatsfoot. this lube has been the best i have ever used as far as lack of fouling and no need for cleaning between shots UNTIL this fiasco..

Dphariss · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2023, 07:58:15 PM »

This is how a properly made and installed vent liner should look with powder in the barrel. This is FFF Swiss.

You can enlarge the vent to 5/64” (.078’) but you will blow more powder out the vent when loading.

Daryl · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2023, 09:25:01 PM »

Exactly - powder visible cannot refuse to ignite when the pan goes off.
I fill the pans on all my flinters. The only time I get refusals to ignite, is if the flint needs napping.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2023, 12:51:23 AM »

The picture of your gun looks like a left hand version. A friend of mine is left handed and bought a Great Plains rifle before they made a lefty. He had no problem with it. He bought another one, because he helped a friend build it, and it had a fantastic piece of stock wood. Still no problem. Then they came out with the same gun in a left handed version, he bought one and he had nothing but problems. It seems lefties are usually built on a separate assembly line, and sometimes they are built a little different.

Hungry Horse

adkmountainken · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2023, 01:37:40 AM »

i am left eye dominate so i shoot lefty but i am right handed, the gun was built by a well know custom builder many years ago and was his personal rifle. and before everyone tells me to first contact the builder i would rather not and leave it at that...

Daryl · « **Reply #24 on:** February 21, 2023, 01:45:07 AM »

NP - sounds to me like you are going to have to pull the breach and 'fix' it- if the 'anti-chamber' is smaller than at least 3/8". I do agree with Dan, that should be large enough.
If you don't submerge the barrel in a bucked of water and flush water into and out of the gun, this area will never get clean. THAT might also be a problem - old fouling built up.

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Author Topic: ignition problems please help (Read 3422 times)