help needed - unknown rifle

[Dobyns]

A friend showed me a rifle yesterday, but it isn't anything that I recognize, and is not marked.   At present, it has 33" of 36cal 7 groove, 7/8" barrel with very low and fine sights, and chicken track stipling on the top flat.  It has been shortened at the breech by 4-1/4". LOP is 12-3/4".  There are decorative silver ovals on the forend, at the wrist, and one on the cheek, but none engraved.  The wear plate, side plate, and patchbox panels and silver are all attached with tiny steel pins.  The sheet formed nose cap has 2 rivets and the patchbox catch has one.  The patchbox release is on the rear of the buttplate, is very small, and opens with a thumbnail.  Engraving is modest and neat.







The lock has no halfcock notch, and has a crown over HH on the inside of the lockplate.  The triggers work only as DST.




















Does anyone recognize where this might have originated and who might have made it?

[JTR]

With that patchbox, looks like a New England area rifle to me.

[rich pierce]

With that patchbox, looks like a New England area rifle to me.

Sideplate too.

[Tanselman]

There were some fine, curly maple stocked guns made in western New York, often not signed, that are hard to identify, but beautiful guns none-the-less with good lines, somewhat different patchboxes, and more interesting engraving than most east coast guns.

The wear plate shape reminds me of PA guns, as does the engraved "wings" on the small, oval side plate that's somewhat similar in shape and engraving style [like the butt carving] on upper Susquehanna rifles... but probably not enough curvature in comb to be from there. The most interesting detail to me is the large, reverse curl rear spur which most often suggests a southern gun. This one will be interesting to watch and read the comments that get posted... it's a neat rifle with a different style box, good architecture, and good engraving.

Shelby Gallien

[Buck]

I had a rifle with a similar patch box, we thought the finial was an Indian bust with a feather on the top of it's head. Nice rifle.

Buck

[Dobyns]

The wear plate shape reminds me of PA guns, as does the engraved "wings" on the small, oval side plate that's somewhat similar in shape and engraving style [like the butt carving] on upper Susquehanna rifles... but probably not enough curvature in comb to be from there. The most interesting detail to me is the large, reverse curl rear spur which most often suggests a southern gun. This one will be interesting to watch and read the comments that get posted... it's a neat rifle with a different style box, good architecture, and good engraving.

Shelby Gallien

I've looked through the library and can see why you think the engraving resembles "Upper Susquehanna".  In Wm G Miller's #1 and #2 rifles pictured, I see similarities in stock proflile, wear plate, side plate, patchbox release size and location, and amazingly similar engraving on patchbox #2.  Those are both much earlier than this one. 

With 12-3/4" LOP and 37-1/2" original barrel length, would this be 9/10 scale as in for a smaller statured person?

[Tanselman]

If you could post a good picture of the tang at the back/breech end of the barrel, it might help place this rifle better. Tangs varied in length, shape of tip, number of screws, straight or angles sides, etc., and those details at times help us locate the region a rifle came from.

Shelby Gallien

[Dobyns]

tang picture as requested



toe plate



From the buttplate up throught the wrist there is what appears to be a darkened, incised line parallel to the lower line, and likewise parallel to the ramrod channel.  These are so slight that they almost appear "inked".

[Tanselman]

Dobyns,

Well, the rather "standard" single bolt tang on your rules out most southern rifles... drats! You have a good eye for small details when making comparisons to other Upper Susquehanna rifles, and more specifically the W. G. Miller rifles in our library. I think you are headed in the right direction, particularly after looking at the patchbox's small nails and lid engraving on the first Miller rifle. Even the Miller rifle's comb shape and side facings along with a "slightly longer" cheekpiece are rather similar to those on your rifle. That, along with the strong similarities with wear plate, toe plate, and oval lock bolt plate to Upper Susquehanna rifles now make me think you probably have a good quality rifle from that area, perhaps even a Miller piece, but still hard to know for sure.

Shelby Gallien   

[Buck]

Dobyns,

Is there a pin in the rear entry pipe? In other words is it a 2 piece entry pipe?

Buck

[jdm]

[quote author=Buck
Dobyns

Is there a pin in the rear entry pipe? In other words is it a 2 piece entry pipe?

Buck
That would be an important detail to know. Good question.

[Dobyns]

Dobyns,

Is there a pin in the rear entry pipe? In other words is it a 2 piece entry pipe?

Buck

I can't see any pin other than the one to fasten it to the stock.  It looks identical to the one pictured with Miller #2 in the library
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=7640.0
and this one, another short LOP rifle
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=35657.0

this last rifle is silver mounted, with different buttplate, trigger guard, and patchbox, but still has the same comb profile, long cheek piece, same very light incised line along the toe and forend, same pinned technique to fasten the patchbox panels and sideplate, same basic patchbox engraving,patchbox release size and location, and chicken track stipling visible in front of the rear sight

back to rifle #2 again, the points and facets filed on the trigger guard are vey similar despite being different guards

[Buck]

Jim

That’s a signature detail of a river gun. I don’t see it on this one.

Buck